December 3/4, 2005
[JeffLebow] Hey Guys
[scott] chaos central here! how are tricks?
[JeffLebow] What's going on in ScottWorld?
JohnMartin has joined the chat.
[JeffLebow] Hey John
[JohnMartin] Recover yet?
[JeffLebow] from BS14a?
[JohnMartin] Yeah, the Mega-thon
[JohnMartin] Listened to it again today
[JohnMartin] I haven't laughed so hard or learned so much
[JeffLebow] It was pretty easy on me ... just sat back and listened most of the time
[scott] sick screaming kids, lunchtime, cold rainy Sunday - what more could you ask for?
[JeffLebow] some webcasting excitement
[JohnMartin] Can we handle any more of that
[JeffLebow] can never get enough...
[JeffLebow] Want to do a chaoscast Scott?
[JeffLebow] Get the kids on for some pre-show fun
[JeffLebow] perhaps some tunes
[scott] I wish I could be 8000 miles away making fun suggestion, ;)
[scott] BBL, lum
Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor has joined the chat.
[Jason] howdy :)
[Jason] i am a little shy with the skype stuff :)
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] the only way to find out is to jump in
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] or you can call into the teleconference.
[Jason] it's funny...most people say i am shy until they get to know me...you might not be able to shut me up....
[Jason] oh, i have the skype....
barbara has joined the chat.
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Jason go ahead to skype worldbridges.
[Jason] shyness...setting....in.... :)
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[barbara] no one can hear dave...
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[Art_Gelwicks] I can't even hear him breathing!
[Art_Gelwicks] No nerd points for taking a nerd test online?
[JohnMartin] Geez, Thursday took a beating on poor Jeff
[JohnMartin] Welcome Jason!!!
[barbara] why do you say that? :-)
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[barbara] oops we lost Art
[erin] he's on the feed now, isn't he?
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[JohnMartin] Hey Barbara great to have you back
[JohnMartin] Hey Lyndall
[JohnMartin] Great job last week
[JeffLebow] Timothy, great to see you here. Thanks much for the email. Sorry we haven't gotten back to you yet
[Lyndall] Hello all
[barbara] I have my bullwhip with me...ready to roll
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Welcome back Lyndall
[Lyndall] It's nice to come home again
[JeffLebow] Any North Americans out there are encouraged to join in via teleconference...call 1-402-756-9000, access code 537267#
[timothy_mckean] Thanks... very excited to be here for the first time
[JeffLebow] Non-North Americans can do the same, but skyping out to the teleconference....1.9 euro cents/minute
[barbara] did we lose the audio?
dave has joined the chat.
[barbara] I am sorry dave the chat rioom is full
[erin] hey defe-a
[dave] timothy... have you gotten you're skype hooked up yet?
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Lyndall has joined the chat.
[timothy_mckean] I just installed it about 10 minutes ago
[timothy_mckean] haven't used it yet though
[Lyndall] I'm just going to listen today - my connection problems are still unresolved
[dave] timothy b. mckean?
[JeffLebow] We'll have to troubleshoot them sometime Lyndall... feel free to skype sometime and we can experiment
[barbara] Plymouth State in New Hampshire?
[Lyndall] Thanks Jeff - I suspect it is my ISP
[JohnMartin] Yes Barbara
[barbara] know it well
[JohnMartin] Oh really?
[barbara] Family there
[JohnMartin] What a small world!
[Lyndall] I will stay in the chat until I drop off again, but I'll be listening
[Art_Gelwicks] Definitely more on the prof. dev. topic.
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[barbara] I am puzzled as to why ppt is still considered an essential tool in professional development...comments?
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[Art_Gelwicks] Adult skills can be so ranged that it makes course development and execution difficult at times.
[dave] crazy weird for design
[Art_Gelwicks] Think crayons and construction paper. It's that mindset.
[barbara] so can students' too... i think that is where we left off last time
[dave] shh... barbara.
[dave] quiet now.
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] In my world 80% of my colleagues are not able to use PPT
[Art_Gelwicks] I have colleagues that use PPT to design web sites...go figure.
[Jason] In my world, 80% can't use powerpoint, of the 20% that do, they don't use it very effectively....
[barbara] Hasnl;t it become a crutch?
[barbara] Pretty pictures vs content?
[scott] David Byrne formerly of the Talking Heads has been using PowerPoint as an arte forme!! Anyone seen it?
[erin] to be fair, pretty pictures vs. content isn't an issue of how the program works.
[barbara] do tell erin
[erin] it's how the program is used.
[Art_Gelwicks] As a speaker, yes it has become a crutch to far too many presenters.
[barbara] and used poorly?
[dave] powerpoint ninjas
[Art_Gelwicks] Bring back overheads!
[barbara] it is used for reading remediation: they show it and read it
[timothy_mckean] I'm looking into using acrobat pdf files instead of PPT to guarantee that fonts and other things aooear as you want them even if
[Jason] Ugh to overheads. :) I am glad that I don't have all the marker stains on my clothes and hands anymore
[scott] I can't count how many times I go to talks where the speaker reads his/her powerpoint slides to the audience.
[timothy_mckean] you switch computers or platforms
[dave] i can read (albeit barely) it irritates me when people read to me
[barbara] I think we should organize a conference on technology and declare it a ppt free zone
[barbara] could it happen?
[erin] not to mention overheads separate the teacher from their audience, physically.
[erin] i don't think so, b.
[Art_Gelwicks] A presenter should be able to present their topic effectively with or without PPT. It should be an enhancement, not the pres.
[JohnMartin] PPT drives me nuts but it is almost a security blanket for many
[barbara] art, yes
[timothy_mckean] exactly Scott... might as well just e-mail it to me and I can stay home
[Art_Gelwicks] Have a tech conference and hide all the power cables to the LCD projectors!
[erin] yes. ppt should be used to present ancillary materials, only.
[barbara] the best ppt I ever saw was one slide... the presenter didn;t need anything but a backdrop. he knew his stuff and engaged the
[Jason] amusing :)
[JohnMartin] PPT as a Bill Gates-way drug
[barbara] audience ina dialogue
[timothy_mckean] Like any tool, it can be used for good or evil
[Art_Gelwicks] This PPT presentation brought to you by Prozac.
[JohnMartin] PPT and CMS - same control freak issues?
[timothy_mckean] PPT... doesn't make you a good speaker?
[barbara] absolutely not!
[Art_Gelwicks] Just gives the audience something to look at while they tune you out.
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[JohnMartin] How do you follow up on Thursday night
[Art_Gelwicks] I always wanted to do a presentation where the slides had nothing to do with the topic I was speaking about.
[barbara] and the amount of time people spend diddling with the colors and backgrounds
[JohnMartin] Oh dear lord yet
[timothy_mckean] want to continue from Thursday?
[Art_Gelwicks] Slashdot picked up a BusinessWeek article about the "MySpace Generation".
[JohnMartin] I had a Supt who nearly killed our staff with PPT poisoning
[dave] who can he mean?
[dave] certainly not me
[dave] must be barbara
[Art_Gelwicks] PTPD - Post Traumatic Powerpoint Disorder.
[scott] how about Mac vs Windows? that's alway contentious. ;)
[barbara] dave suggested marijuana, i think...
[erin] summary: elgg sucks.
[barbara] thank you erin
[Art_Gelwicks] Who's he calling a professional?
[timothy_mckean] use of packaged tools, rather than individual pieces available on the mainstream internet...
[barbara] dead air?
[Art_Gelwicks] chirp chirp
[erin] the point about student disclosure is about connecting the academic and personal blogs.
[barbara] looking for the headset...dave;s cat took mijne too
[timothy_mckean] I think that it's absolutely appropraite to have a dedicated educational environment..
[JohnMartin] Wouldn't it be nice for a learner to be able to carry their learning artifacts with them throughout their learning career
[timothy_mckean] so that students don't have to disclose their personal blogs in the classes
[JohnMartin] Rather than them being locked in a proprietary CMS or other one-way tech solution
[erin] john: they can. but do they use them?
[barbara] learnign artifacts?
[Art_Gelwicks] Aren't those called books?
[erin] and you can have separate blogs without having a separate, closed, educational environment.
[barbara] and what about people who don't want to blog?
[timothy_mckean] I haven't used htem before, but can't they archive the work that they do in them?
[scott] can they pass the class if they don't blog?
[Art_Gelwicks] Think about this...500 years ago we have documents to study for history...
[dave] and those students who don't want to study math
[erin] a closed environment doesn't allow access by others, which can be really quite beneficial.
[Art_Gelwicks] what will be studied on us 500 years from now? Blogs?
[barbara] yes, but the question is about whether we are making assumptions here... that they are comfortable (cuz they are younger) that
[timothy_mckean] I agree with Dave.... when did kids start choosing what they want to do?
[barbara] they want to interacty with a class 9which they may not)
[JohnMartin] Sorry about the term artifacts - my former boss is doing his dissertation on electronic portfolios
[barbara] what is an artifact?
[erin] i don't understand why blogging needs to be social.
[barbara] or hy our assumption is that blogging is social
[Art_Gelwicks] I don't think it's a matter of need...it's a matter of is there a benefit from it.
[timothy_mckean] I think that the blogs can be private or social...
[JohnMartin] How can blogging not be social? Maybe we need to define what we mean by the term
[scott] isn't an artifact a product of students' work/learning that others can use/observe.
[timothy_mckean] I think that certain age groups certainly need the structure that the CMS provides.
[erin] blogging is just like keeping a journal. it all depends on who you show it to.
[barbara] because there are people who blog just for themseleve... we assume thatb thye want to link but some people don't.
[barbara] Remember when your older sister/ younger brother found your diary? Same idea/
[JohnMartin] Is blogging just another form of journaling? I don't know if I buy that
[JohnMartin] It can be for sure
[erin] maybe learners want to be able to fumble around in private instead of for an audience.
[erin] john: why not?
[timothy_mckean] can't one set up a blog on the computer, not on the internet... if they want to keep it private?
[scott] most "normal" folk I talk to think of a blog as the same thing as diary - by "normal" I mean non-blogger.
[timothy_mckean] Erin... is that an argument for an enclosed learnig environment?
[dave] hee hee
[erin] no, it's not at all.
[JohnMartin] It just seems to me that blogging can be as much a tool for interaction and discourse as it is to be a stand along diary
[JohnMartin] Some use blogs as electronic portfolios
[erin] it's an argument for teachers to not choose for their students whether their work is public or private.
[JohnMartin] Barbara Ganley uses them in her creative writing class
[dave] for what... that's the question. what are we trying to teach. If content is becoming irrelevant, or at least losing value, what
[dave] are we trying to teach?
[JohnMartin] It is a way to propose, develop, refine and test our ideas against a broader audience
[barbara] And shall we go down the "language" path?
[JohnMartin] What do you mean barbara?
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Timothy McKean can we get you into the audio conversation?
[timothy_mckean] to me... the purpose of blogging is to make your ideas public... if you dont want it public why blog?
[erin] tim: many blog for themselves.
[scott] good point timothy
[JeffLebow] are you on the teleconference yet?
[JohnMartin] But to what end Erin? Wouldn't a Word document be a safer less public alternative?
[erin] blogging online allows one to blog privately, and if at some later point they want to make it public it's as easy as telling
[erin] others where to find the blog.
[barbara] Are we to assume that the language our students use in a blog (for their teachers, for the class) is their language...
[scott] Dave Winer would say if it's not for a wider audience then it is not blogging!
[barbara] or a language that is created in order to please the teacher?
[timothy_mckean] why blog for themsleves..... right... why not just write in a word processor?
[dave] what does he know about the internet scott? :)
[JohnMartin] Which isn't much different from what they hand in as papers in class, wouldn't you say barbara?
[erin] well, for at least one very technical reason: to have offsite backup.
[Art_Gelwicks] If you write a blog and nobody reads it...is it still a blog?
[barbara] Yes it is different john because it is not being given to the teacher...it is being given to everyone
[JohnMartin] Very good Erin!
[barbara] and everyone can comment, dissect, shred
[dave] art... that was very interesting, would you like to elaborate on your position
[erin] current tools also allow users to decide who has access to what on a post by post basis.
[barbara] Dave's cat took my mike too...
[erin] livejournal, for instance.
[Art_Gelwicks] Well, if I write a blog and no one reads it, how is it different than writing a Word doc and storing it locally?
[Art_Gelwicks] Is it all in the intent to share?
[Jason] hi folks! :)
[timothy_mckean] in a special environmant can one limit access to just the teacher?
[dave] trees... blogs.. they have so many things in common
[scott] thanks Jason
[barbara] tech difficulties...need to move from the wireless machine
[JohnMartin] And how many are aware that their blog is very public unless they take steps to restrict access
[JeffLebow] roger that
[JohnMartin] Assuming they can with their blog solution
[dave] that's good, i like bloghugger
[erin] blogging also allows easy access from many computers.
[Art_Gelwicks] True...but you can do that with Writely and most web CMS as well.
[erin] you can write something, submit it, and go to another computer later to finish or edit without trying to figure out how to
[erin] transport the file.
[Art_Gelwicks] It still seems to me to focus on the intent to share.
[erin] yes, the question was about word vs. blogging, though.
[Art_Gelwicks] Those of us who don't have to math divisible by 100 use Farenheit.
[JohnMartin] True, local v. global access
[erin] local vs. remote. if blogging was inherently about sharing, then everyone who blogged would share.
[JohnMartin] This is a classroom too !!!
[Jason] yay! :)
[scott] hey Timothy
[Art_Gelwicks] So again...if you don't share, is it truly a blog?
[erin] yes, it is.
[erin] if you have a car, and you don't drive it, is it still a car?
[Art_Gelwicks] So a blog is basically just a running text piece? Nothing more?
[scott] not if it's out of gas
[erin] i completely disagree. blogging does not have to be shared.
[Art_Gelwicks] So the word document that I post on an FTP server on the web is a blog?
[scott] then it's a bucket of bolts
[erin] publishing is d than sharing.
[Art_Gelwicks] And the PDF file I throw into BitTorrent is a blog?
[JohnMartin] The technology is still a blog, but in philosophy many would disagree
[erin] i can publish a blog without telling anyone about it.
[dave] no. i'm not saying that either
[dave] yes you can
[erin] and it's still a blog.
[dave] but blogging is public
[Art_Gelwicks] And I can write a journal page in HTML and it's not a blog by definition then.
[dave] wether or not people read ti
[barbara] it doesn;t have to be!
[JohnMartin] And did you lock your account behind a username / password or is it being indexed by Google?
[dave] or wether you restrict it
[erin] if i have an email account and i only use it for file storage, is it still an email account?
[scott] right Art, it's gotta have the RSS angle for it to be blog
[barbara] or you have to tell people about it
[barbara] thank you art
[JohnMartin] But again - many don't realize that when they launch a Wordpress or Blogger blog that they are in the public view
[scott] If a troll doesn't hijack a chatroom with false analogies is it still a troll?
[Art_Gelwicks] That's true JM. As a web developer, I still think many people think of it as an easy way to update a site...not as an online
[dave] ROTFL scott
[barbara] To be fair, p[eople, dontcha think that the users may have hijacked the orginal intent of the blog to make it "educational"
[dave] which users?
[JohnMartin] What was the original intent and does an original intent ever stay in stasis?
[barbara] the people who want to use blogs as a tool to conenct others...
[dave] what was the 'original intent' that was hijacked?
[JohnMartin] I am amazed by the number of my students who have the accounts
[JohnMartin] Of course I do to - mySpace that is
[JohnMartin] Gotta stay hip, or whatevah
[barbara] to be able to write...just write for the sake of writing...but not particularly wanting to SHARE anything
[Jason] A lot of my students use myspace accounts....they told me to get one, I did, and suddenly I have 60 student "friends" added..
[JohnMartin] Is extremely valuable
[Jason] Instant community....
[dave] are you sure that was the 'original intent'?
[JohnMartin] But sharing is another critical component of learning and evolving as an individual
[barbara] writing is not the intent of a blog?
[barbara] do tell
[erin] they might not want to make available to the whole class what they do in their educational blog, either.
[JohnMartin] Maybe it was never about the writing per se but about the ability to communicate in a different way
[Jason] My view: mySpace is easy to use...I think students like finding other kids.....
[JohnMartin] mySpace is about seeing and being seen
[erin] it doesn't matter what it was about, it matters what it *is* about. if we're going to move from teacher-centrism to
[erin] student-centrism, you can't assume one intent!
[JohnMartin] Absolutely erin!
[barbara] and along with that you cannot assume that they want to be connected either
[JohnMartin] But I would argue that we lose when we move from one extreme to another
[scott] is it not the distribution/syndication functionality that makes "IT" a blog? If one write's only for oneself, why have rss feed?
[JohnMartin] Teacher-centrism forgets the student
[erin] student-centrism isn't an extreme.
[JohnMartin] Student-centrism assumes they don't need guidance or learning assistance
[Art_Gelwicks] MySpace users must be 14 to join. TOS
[erin] it just means the focus is more largely on what the students want and need.
[erin] not what the teacher thinks the students want and need.
[erin] student-centrism encourages teachers to stop assuming they know what's best for students.
[JohnMartin] I don't disagree, I just worry that many seem to assume that the pendulum swings too far in the other direction
[erin] can you explain that further?
barbara has left the chat.
[Jason] I don't think it is...there is no Microsoft branding
[dave] now i can write again
[dave] don't know what happened
[dave] I just want to say. I agree.
[barbara] did we all fall off?
[Jason] Jason? Wrong guy.... :)
[barbara] You agree about what?
[JohnMartin] You, Erin and Dave all dropped out
[erin] i fell off but it was my fault.
[JohnMartin] We got worried
[dave] i dropped myself out. browser issue.
[barbara] lemmings jumping off the cliff?
[JohnMartin] Can I come too?
[barbara] I had to switch machines
[erin] john: can you explain your point about the pendulum?
[erin] i love fark.com
[erin] but you're completely right. it can be sooo inappropriate for a 14-year-old
[JohnMartin] Yeah just ask the folks in Australia,
[Jason] i am amused by it too, but.....
[JohnMartin] Blogs are blocked but they found the porn
[dave] you're right john
[dave] like somehow the blogs are the problem
[JohnMartin] It's the filtering system that so many institutions either choose or are forced to deploy that are often the root of the prob
[scott] so it sounds like the teachers need to be trained how to equip the kids to navigate the net-environment
[scott] who is gonna train the teachers?
[erin] should that be the job of teachers? or parents?
[JohnMartin] There is a difference
[Art_Gelwicks] In most cases neither one is ready for the job.
[erin] but who does the job ultimately fall to?
[JohnMartin] The teachers seem to bear the brunt
[Art_Gelwicks] It has to go to both.
[JohnMartin] But I would argue for the parents
[Jason] teachers. very much so....many kids don't have access to the technology or the parents the skill to teach skills
[scott] Three cheers for Rupert Murdoch! harumph
[erin] unfortunately, kids usually learn how to navigate the web for themselves.
[Art_Gelwicks] Is it "higher" education or "hiring" education?
[JohnMartin] Don't know - can we throw out tenure?
[JohnMartin] Or are you speaking of hiring in the form of student widgets?
[Art_Gelwicks] Better jobs or better people...which is more important?
[Art_Gelwicks] Teaching students for the new white collar factory labor.
[JohnMartin] I would hope better people would create better jobs but that may just be me
[erin] that's why we have liberal arts schools and vocational schools. because nobody can agree.
[JeffLebow] Just another reminder... if anyone else would like to join in, you can use your phone (or cell phone) to call
[JeffLebow] 1-402-756-9000, access code 537267#
[Art_Gelwicks] It's easier to be open when you don't know who will "hear" you.
[erin] art: yes, but also when you don't have to look the person in the eye.
[erin] and when there's a little more of a filter between your arranging the words and then making them "heard"
[Art_Gelwicks] Exactly. So shouldn't we be teaching the best ways to communicate using this medium since so may of the non-verbal and
[Art_Gelwicks] verbal cues are missing?
[scott] Well said Dave!
[Art_Gelwicks] Not only proper linguistic skills, but communicating in a conversational mode while conveying emotion and thought.
[erin] not necessarily, because that mode of communication doesn't necessarily transfer.
[Jason] Don't you have to make assignments as a teacher? Doesn't that mean that any assignment is "teacher-centered"?
[Art_Gelwicks] Teaching to blog well is no different than teaching to speak well and write well.
[erin] assignments are teacher-centered when they're based on what the teacher thinks is best, with no student input.
[erin] they are student-centered when the teacher considers what the students think.
[Jason] What is the brightline test for that, Erin? At what point do you have enough student input?
[erin] no one's asking for anarchy in the classroom.
[erin] ja when you have listened to anyone who cares to comment.
[erin] when you have a feel for the general opinion.
[erin] you don't have to ask each and every student what they want.
[scott] is teacher-center being used in a pejorative sense here?
[erin] scott: no.
[dave] i think it is
[Jason] Erin: do you have to take in account every opinion?
[erin] no, but you have to get an idea. sometimes, what you would have done anyway will work wonderfully.
[dave] ack. cat attack.
[erin] but sometimes you might find out you're out of touch.
[JohnMartin] I would like to see what we use as a definition for student-centered
[erin] and teachers should not be obsolete.
[Jason] Erin: do you agree that students sometimes don't act out of their "interest" as a student but rather other factors? Like...
[scott] good points Barbara!!
[Jason] wanting to do "easier" work, for example?
[erin] sure, of course that's going to happen. but you as a teacher can tell when that's the case.
[Art_Gelwicks] I agree Barbara...always ask the why.
[Jason] isn't that being "teacher-centered," too, then under this model?
[JohnMartin] It isn't that we are trying to connect students, aren't we trying to connect ideas or facilitate those connections?
[dave] damn cat. back now.
[JohnMartin] The intent of the discourse, whether verbal or written, is to cultivate and refine our cognitive connections
[JohnMartin] But in a classroom, physical or virtual, aren't they connecting already
[erin] yes but on their own terms.
[scott] Does the student or the family have the right to choose not to participate in the online community?
[Art_Gelwicks] I have yet to hear an answer to why connection is such a bad thing?
[JohnMartin] Aren't we leveraging that connected-ness to further the learning for that particular course/lesson/degree?
[erin] because not everyone is interested in connecting on this level.
[JohnMartin] On what level though?
[Art_Gelwicks] But aren't you also worried then about losing those who are?
[erin] no, because if people are interested in connecting they'll do it on their own. on their own terms. using their own tools.
[Jason] Should we not use the Internet of a family doesn't like it?
[Art_Gelwicks] So is there a place for it in the school?
[JohnMartin] So then what is the purpose of a classroom?
[JohnMartin] What about those who disengage from class because they are unable to vie with their more vocal peers?
[scott] Those who refuse to particpate in the online community should be taken to village gates and banished!! ;)
[JohnMartin] Is that dis-connection healthy?
[JohnMartin] Technology is not a panacea, but it is another tool
[Art_Gelwicks] Living near Amish country I truly appreciate that connectivity is a choice...but even the Amish provide their teens an
[erin] it's not up to us to determine what's healthy or not. it's up to us to provide access to tools.
[scott] Dave Winer said that about conference sessions first!
[Art_Gelwicks] opportunity to be exposed to the world and decide on their own.
[Jason] If we say that, can't we say that about all technologies? Like...books, too? We shouldn't force students to read certain
[JohnMartin] Hated it
[Art_Gelwicks] What's the general then?
[JohnMartin] then apply to their future learning opportunities?
[Jason] I don't think blogging is specific at all....it is general....
[erin] john: yes! but forcing them to blog, assigning them blogs, is not simply equipping them with tools.
[Art_Gelwicks] Learn how to write in a chronological, conversational tone?
[Jason] Teaching someone how to fingerprint? Specific
[Jason] Learning how to respond to other's ideas?
[Art_Gelwicks] Dusting for them is much more fun.
[erin] blogging uses a very specific skill set.
[Art_Gelwicks] How so?
[Jason] They might not be blogging, but they might be writing for others....
[Jason] Barbara: if we can say that, why can't we say that about SPEAKING or READING or WRITING?
[Art_Gelwicks] Lots of assumptions were made for me in school as to the skills I would need...like long division.
[Jason] Yes? :)
[Art_Gelwicks] I have to say Barbara...you are definitely making us think about the why for the tech. THANK YOU!!!!
[erin] speaking, reading, and writing are basic skills.
[Jason] Yeah, this is a great discussion!!!!!
[Art_Gelwicks] Should an instructor have a stable of tools at their disposal?
[Jason] Erin....you never answers what skill set is extra for blogging.....
[erin] like the primary colors. you equip people with basic skills, and show them how to mix them to learn other skills. like secondary
[Art_Gelwicks] Blogging, wiki, HTML, word, etc. that they can use depending on the student's needs?
[erin] sorry, i've got a couple of different discussions going.
[erin] blogging requires computer/typing skills.
[Jason] So, then, Erin, you would be against a teacher requiring that a paper be typed?
[Jason] Or an essay test be readable?
[erin] readble does not mean typed.
[Art_Gelwicks] Yes...but typing and core computer literacy should be considered a basic skill.
[JohnMartin] What if I don't like writing, what is my option then?
[Jason] Art: I couldn't agree more.
[Jason] Or if I ...prefer.... speaking out loud?
[Art_Gelwicks] A well rounded individual should be able to communicate effectively in a number of medium.
[Jason] Or...at least be exposed to a number of medium
[erin] i'm not arguing for anarchy. many options exist between anarchy and fascism.
[Jason] Or...be challenged to work inside of a number of medium
[Art_Gelwicks] Many bloggers can't speak worth a darn.
[Art_Gelwicks] (And you should see their handwriting!)
[dave] erin. are you arguing for anarchy?
[JohnMartin] What would be considered basic skills for the 21st century citizen?
[Jason] I guess I wonder, Erin, what your practical world looks like...
[JohnMartin] Awww, Jeff!!!!
[Jason] We talk about choice but we rarely define what that means practically....
[Art_Gelwicks] tYPING wITHOUT thE cAPS lOCK oN sHOULD bE a bASIC sKILL.
[Art_Gelwicks] Suck it up.
[Jason] wHAT dO yOU mEAN?
[scott] Thanks Jeff in Ann Arbor
[dave] enough of the caps lock
[Jason] OR EVEN IN ALL CAPS....THAT'S BASIC TOO
[erin] allowing student input doesn't mean we're going to cut them loose totally.
[Art_Gelwicks] Jeff in Ann Arbor...good job as always!
[Jason] What does it mean, then? What does the practical lesson look like?
[dave] *whip* *whip*
[Art_Gelwicks] You can count that one, Barbara.
[erin] it means considering what student think. not what a teacher thinks they should think.
[Jason] I repeat...that is a nice way to argue in a platitude, but what does the practical lesson look like?
[JohnMartin] They can live with it
[barbara] i am being practical
[JohnMartin] This is good stuff
[erin] that's the point - you can't make a generalization like that.
[dave] yes. this is good.
[erin] i can't say that any one way works for everybody.
[Jason] How about demonstrating one way? I want to see this practically.
[Art_Gelwicks] These things need to be sponsored by Starbucks.
[scott] This was brilliant, thanks everyone!!
[erin] okay, here you go.
[Jason] sweet :)
[dave] cheers all... have a good rest of your day scott
[erin] a high school english ap teacher requires certain books be studied duringthe course of the semester.
[erin] but also provides a list of other books that may be substituted upon consultation with the teacher.
[Art_Gelwicks] All brainstorm...all the time...24/7
[erin] and allows students to bring books not on the list to the teacher for consideration.
[JohnMartin] Do we get t-shirts for this?
[Jason] So, no book is required? Just books?
[Art_Gelwicks] Dave's a big meanie.
[dave] tshirts are in your email account
[JeffLebow] We gotta get Tshirts
[JohnMartin] Oh yeah, forgot that
[dave] yes. i am.
[JohnMartin] Where's the logo?
[Art_Gelwicks] Wasn't that the language with the turtle?
[erin] i said at the beginning: certain books are required.
[JohnMartin] Remember that technology is the means not the end
[JeffLebow] And the 24/7 brainstorm channel may not be so far away.... all we need are lots of webcast literate hosts
[Art_Gelwicks] But if they use a paper book or an e-text it doesn't matter, right?
[JohnMartin] Sometimes even I forget that
[Jason] Well, based on your argument, that would be wrong. Any mandatory requirement is "teacher-centered"
[erin] no, the lack of respecting student input is teacher centered.
[Jason] It's Saturday night? :)
[Art_Gelwicks] Don't forget the chat room crew!
[scott] Sunday afternoon ;)
[Jason] But, based on what you say above...you are arguing that I wouldn't be respecting student opinion if I choose a book
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Sorry scott I need to remember all my audience.
[JohnMartin] Deep breaths barbara
[scott] Great sign-off Jeff
[Jason] If a student doesn't like a book that I assign, shouldn't that mean choice, under your argument?
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Good night all it's been something special.
[erin] no, you don't have to allow all choice or no choice.
[JohnMartin] Night Jeff
[Jeff_from_Ann_Arbor] Thanks Scott, I look forward to speaking live again some day.
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[Jason] What is the bright line for that? At what point are you paying "enough" attention to student opinion on their learning?
[Jason] (BTW, I am playing devil's advocate here...I give a lot of choice with my students, maybe not as much as Erin would argue is
[Jason] good, but...)
[erin] bleh, my headset's not working. can i call the number still?
[JohnMartin] There she is
[Art_Gelwicks] No good on the skype. Dave's gonna get yanked through the phone.
[JohnMartin] Way to go Erin
[Jason] Hi Erin! :)
[scott] Barbara keeps gettin getting interupted. That's not cricket. ;(
[dave] you're right scott
[dave] my bad
[Jason] I require that every "paper" be typed....not daily assignment like things....
[JohnMartin] PPV - King of the ETT Ring
[JohnMartin] How is this different for K-12 than for higher ed?
[Jason] but, part of the point is that we are TEACHING the interaction with the technology
[JohnMartin] But the student is usually frustrated because they can't use these technologies
[JohnMartin] So many of our students live this stuff
[JohnMartin] Maybe not Blackboard/WebCT but the tools for communicating
[barbara] not all john
[barbara] not all
[Jason] then it is even more important that we expose students to it
[JohnMartin] True not all students but more and more every day
[barbara] aaargh! who says?
[JohnMartin] My experience with the students I encounter at PSU and those that I worked with during my time in K-12
[Jason] i do. :) sorry but i am a professional educator and these are technologies that i use along with speaking, and listening and
[timothy_mckean] Barbara, I tihnk that John may be reffering to yournger students...
[Jason] writing and reading and small group and large group communication and.....
[JohnMartin] No it's not scientific but if it is occuring in rural NH - it's likely to be occuring elsewhere
[JohnMartin] I have students who come to me frustrated with the fact that their professors won't accept electronic submissions,
[Jason] Oh, and so does the State of Montana. :) I have technology standards that I am expected to integrate in my class, along with
[Jason] my social studies content.
[JohnMartin] There are those as well
[JohnMartin] Why is teaching separate from communicating?
[JohnMartin] We're not talking a dating service here, we're talking about discourse
[Jason] snowing here too: http://www.carroll.edu/about/webcam/index.cc
[JohnMartin] I want snow!
[JohnMartin] By board is lonely
[Jason] i want it to go away :)
[JohnMartin] Send it to me!!!
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[Jason] okay, my wife is starting to make the sad eyes at me...i'm going to take off. GREAT discussion tonight folks...thank you for
[Jason] the intelligent debate
[JohnMartin] 4 8 15 16 23 42
[Jason] hee hee
[Art_Gelwicks] Thanks a bunch Jason!
[JohnMartin] Mine went to bed in disgust
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[dave] i love that guest guy
[Art_Gelwicks] Mine's been alseep for 2 hours. Wrote me off a while ago.
[JohnMartin] She's thinks I'm having an online affair ;)
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[guest-0478] how do you message directly to someone in the chatte roome?
[dave] you are john
[JohnMartin] use /msg username
[JohnMartin] But send a non-flame test first!!!
[dave] barbara are you accusing us of negligence?
[barbara] just you
[dave] lovely to chat with you as always barbara... too many people who think agreeing with people is some kind of virtue
[JohnMartin] group think?
[JohnMartin] Me too barbara
[barbara] and you aren't negligent
[timothy_mckean] constant assessment isa HUGE part of teaching.
[JohnMartin] So Barbara, do you have a blog?
[JohnMartin] Just wondering if you post on these thoughts
[timothy_mckean] Barbara give me an interesting idea.. is there a difference between teaching our students and teach our coleagues...
[timothy_mckean] maybe somthing for another show?
[JohnMartin] Should there be a difference?
[timothy_mckean] I think so..
[timothy_mckean] How do you introduce or persuade other teachers to look at technologies...
[guest-0478] Who is the guy talking (who talked to the superintendant recently)?
[timothy_mckean] with kids you can use the tech to teach core content...
[JohnMartin] The same way we persuade our students, we model!
[dave] twas art gelwicks
[timothy_mckean] I think it's great when faculty get excited about somthing personally first.. tn hethey begin to find...
[timothy_mckean] appliactions in the classroom.
[JohnMartin] I agree, but where do they first encounter something to get excited about
[timothy_mckean] from us?
[JohnMartin] As an tech, I see my job as providing resources that they can choose to employ
[JohnMartin] I try not to prescribe unless asked
[timothy_mckean] I guess that's the question... do we have a roale cuheerncisng othto er ten ciniflnsider tech
[JohnMartin] Assuming they aren't trying to do what Barbara just suggested, then I might save them some pain
[timothy_mckean] that was messy... sorry
[JohnMartin] No worries
[timothy_mckean] I can't even tell what I wrote
[JohnMartin] Sounds like my kids
[JohnMartin] Tell her to read your blog
[JohnMartin] I haven't named names yet Dave ;)
[JohnMartin] It was nice knowing you DAve
[JohnMartin] I gotta go teach tomorrow
[JohnMartin] Sorry I couldn't contribute more, my mic for my cell seems to have died
[JohnMartin] New mic virus?
[JohnMartin] I do worry sometimes that we exclude
[JohnMartin] Me too, good luck tomorrow - my class will be listening to the live cast tomorrow
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[JohnMartin] You are welcome, thanks for everything
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[guest-0478] Good stuff, thanks everyone!
[barbara] thank you for another exciting evening... I now why my kids like watching the WWF