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CCK08 Weekly Chat #2

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Connectivism and Connective Knowledge Online Course
Week#2 Discussion
September 19, 2008
 
 
 
 11:45 debcarter : hello from kelowna, bc
 11:47 anitsirk : hello from luxembourg
 11:48 anitsirk : nice music to pass th last 10 minutes :-)
 11:50 ustreamer-6399 : Thanks - just heard about this song - yeh hum naheen this week - http://yehhumnaheen.org/
 11:52 voges : hello from holland, here is sia
 11:52 ustreamer-6399 : Hello Voges
 11:52 anitsirk : this looks like another interesting and critical movie like "rang de basanti" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405508/ from 2005
 11:53 anitsirk : eh 2006
 11:53 sebathuer : Hi! Hello from Spain :)
 11:53 voges : please call me sia and not voges
 11:54 anitsirk : and you can call me kristina and not the backwards way :-)
 11:54 voges : i think i have to change my username to see my real name?
 11:54 anitsirk : can you do that?
 11:54 anitsirk : i loggec in with OpenID
 11:55 sebathuer : i can change my real name in my profile menu..
 11:55 sebathuer : but it does not reflect in chat nickname's
 11:56 anitsirk : yeah. :-(
 11:56 voges : i believe i did my username myself, but i don't really remember well because i did make a very lot names the last half year :)
 11:56 anitsirk : ;-)
 11:56 sebathuer : you are right anitsir... nice music! in spanish now ;.)
 11:56 anitsirk : i think the real name only shows up when you click on theprofile
 11:57 anitsirk : hello talkers :-)
 11:57 sebathuer : hello, we are listening ;-)
 11:58 anitsirk : lost in the connection...
 11:59 voges : who was talking to who?
 11:59 anitsirk : i think george talked to dave
 12:00 voges : what 's the time there where george and Stephen are
 12:00 anitsirk : 11 am
 12:00 gsiemens : hey
 12:00 anitsirk : hllo
 12:00 sebathuer : hello
 12:01 voges : thanks, here it's dinnertime.
 12:01 coarsesalt : hey folks
 12:01 sebathuer : in spain is "siesta" time :)
 12:01 anitsirk : yep down south in luxemburg as well
 12:01 coarsesalt : I'm the moderator please post your questions in the chatroom
 12:02 coarsesalt : I'll grab them (if i can) 
 12:02 anitsirk : hello dave.
 12:02 coarsesalt : and will bring them into the conversation when i can
 12:02 voges : No view? only sound?
 12:03 gsiemens : @voges - no video
 12:03 gsiemens : just sound
 12:03 gsiemens : we're not attractive people
 12:03 anitsirk : we know better :-)
 12:03 voges : to bad, i like your face like your voice.
 12:03 anitsirk : seen you in some presentations now ;-)
 12:05 voges : who is thew fan? i am 59, fan on the right way i think
 12:05 anitsirk : there's stephen. :-)
 12:06 sebathuer : hello stephen!
 12:06 ustreamer-14143 : I'm late in.  Should I be seeing anything?
 12:06 anitsirk : no. no video
 12:06 ustreamer-7917 : Hiya folks
 12:06 gsiemens : no, we're not broadcasting video
 12:06 gsiemens : 7917 - Stephen?
 12:07 davidal : I can't hear anything...
 12:07 ustreamer-7917 : I'm tephen
 12:07 ustreamer-7917 : I'm Stephen
 12:08 anitsirk : i can hear just fine. everything loud and clear.
 12:08 sebathuer : me too, i can hear
 12:08 davidal : now!
 12:08 voges : davidal, at my computer no problem
 12:09 wdrexler : We could say that about a lot of difficult concepts.  Related to God - concept of forever or infinity.
 12:10 voges : relegion is not a issue to discus in a course about connectivism I think, maybe it is never a issue to discus because there is not clear
 12:10 ustreamer-35849 : sounds like you're touching on post-modernism
 12:11 voges : i don't like discussion a god because i don't think there is a god at all
 12:11 coarsesalt : @35849 rhizomatics at least is steeped post-modernism
 12:11 coarsesalt : questions?
 12:11 ustreamer-7917 : Even if you don't believe in god - it is worth attempting to explain and understand people's belief in god - like language,, like culture, it's somethibng we want to know about, learn about
 12:11 coarsesalt : anyone?
 12:12 ustreamer-7917 : test
 12:12 coarsesalt : got it
 12:13 LisaMLane : now we can focus on ideas and *really* get crazy!
 12:13 wdrexler : First week - chaos, but still valuable
 12:13 ustreamer-35849 : could you touch on the 'power law' nature of the course?
 12:13 ustreamer-7917 : exactl;y Lisa
 12:13 ustreamer-201 : Can we have some links to these new concept maps?
 12:13 LisaMLane : concept maps are telling us a lot about how people see concept maps
 12:14 LisaMLane : ooooh good one
 12:15 ustreamer-7917 : Here is the religion thread -- http://arieliondotcom.wordpress.com/
 12:15 anitsirk : thanks
 12:15 coarsesalt : txs 7917
 12:15 LisaMLane : you gotta log in
 12:16 anitsirk : you just need to log in,
 12:16 ithinkmedia : Sign in to your account
 12:16 sebathuer : thanks for the link
 12:16 ustreamer-201 : Is there a name for the 'doing' of connecting knowledge?
 12:17 coarsesalt : currently have only ONE question... (now two) more please
 12:17 ustreamer-25724 : hello group!
 12:17 mmvcentro : hello!  who are you 25724?
 12:19 LisaMLane : and why there are three empty creamers on the table? that's connective
 12:19 susaneb : hello I am signed in!
 12:19 wdrexler : Can't something be both qualitative or quantitative AND connective?
 12:19 ustreamer-7917 : because I like 3 creamers in my xtra larg coffee
 12:20 susaneb : 25724 is Susan B. in Italy
 12:20 ustreamer-8432 : test
 12:20 coarsesalt : epistemology = theory of knowledge
 12:20 badgerjen01 : list of mindmap tools, etc.: http://delicious.com/edtechtalk/mindmap
 12:20 Downes : Logged in
 12:21 Downes : that core assumption is very important
 12:21 LisaMLane : most of the members of my network have been dead for centuries
 12:22 Downes : right George
 12:22 anitsirk : @lisa: do your dead connections have different qualities than your other connections?
 12:23 LisaMLane : @anitsirk I gotta think about that one
 12:23 coarsesalt : more questions...
 12:23 LisaMLane : oh good, maybe we'll get to my dead people
 12:24 Downes : (trying to get my mind around the idea of a network of dead people)
 12:24 wdrexler : Theoretically, there could be one brilliant post.
 12:24 LisaMLane : (thanks -- it'll be fun)
 12:25 voges : on this moment a very small number of participants are here, but is that infecting my learning, no.
 12:25 anitsirk : @lisa: how do you interact with your dead connections? i would think it is only onesided as they cannot respond to you.
 12:25 LisaMLane : @anitsirk I don't want to be too flip here, because the idea is important to me
 12:26 LisaMLane : but they do indeed respond
 12:26 sebathuer : Question: I found common points between connectivism an McLuchan's media theory. I'm right? 
 12:26 voges : lisa, what are you saying?
 12:26 LisaMLane : but blogs are less conversational
 12:26 LisaMLane : @voges example: Stephen utilizes philosophers long dead every day to form his ideas
 12:27 anitsirk : alright. i think i am not understanding your network connections clearly which is also difficult in here. have you written about it somewhere where i can read about it a bit more to understand it better?
 12:27 LisaMLane : @anitsirk Not yet, I will,  promise
 12:27 anitsirk : (the comment was directed at lisa)
 12:28 voges : I see Lisa, but i don't recognize them as part of the network of him or mine.
 12:28 anitsirk : thank you.
 12:28 coarsesalt : LMS = learning mangement system
 12:28 coarsesalt : LMS = VLE
 12:28 LisaMLane : Blog following is simply more clicks; Moodle forum seems more conversational
 12:29 LisaMLane : @voges and I would view that as presentism
 12:29 roytwilliams : Most VLE's are no more than content management systems. :(
 12:29 LisaMLane : isn't it easier to skip Moodle posts than click away from a blog?
 12:30 mmvcentro : probably yes lisa
 12:30 wdrexler : I find the blogs a little deeper and easier to follow.  But, I do learn something every time I pop into Moodle.  Moodle is just a little more overwhelming.
 12:30 LisaMLane : there's a reason why people are using the forum, and it's not just power, I don't think
 12:31 wdrexler : The forum is more immediate.  Plus, it feels more like someone is "listening".
 12:31 LisaMLane : the forum is Cheers; to go to blogs you gotta go bar-hopping
 12:31 ithinkmedia : @LisaMLane nature of blogs people are interested in posting, sharing their own ideas as opposed to responding to someone elses 
 12:31 wdrexler : @LisaMLane - Good metaphor
 12:31 wdrexler : @ithinkmedia agreed
 12:32 fleep : I created an account on the Moodle but I'm feeling very anti-LMS these days so haven't posted at all. 
 12:32 coarsesalt : speaking of marketing :P
 12:32 LisaMLane : a colleague of mine said going to blogs is like leaving a note for someone vs hanging out
 12:32 anitsirk : @fleep: would it be different if the forum was not in moodle?
 12:32 fleep : Might be @anitsirk, but I miss the interactivity of the embedded media in blogs.
 12:32 wdrexler : @fleep So our views of the tools impact our learning and connectivity.
 12:32 ithinkmedia : @fleep, I tend to agree I have to write a blog about this :)
 12:33 fleep : laugh @ithinkmedia
 12:33 mmvcentro : have you tried 21st Classes instead of Moodle for a course?
 12:33 roytwilliams : fleep, if you want, you can set up a mini-track in Elluminate, no? 
 12:33 gsiemens : @fleep - nice to see you here (and others, of course :))
 12:33 fleep : @LisaMLane The Second Life cohort is _actually_ hanging out and talking about it.  ;)
 12:33 gsiemens : i vow to get into 2L next week
 12:33 LisaMLane : @fleep true! I'll try it when I feel confident that I can extricate myself from a chair.
 12:34 ithinkmedia : @gsiemens sure playing favorites ;)
 12:34 voges : SL, difficult for an outsider. I will try next week.
 12:34 LisaMLane : LOL
 12:34 anitsirk : ;-)
 12:34 fleep : We had a lot of questions in our conversation last night about that "sub symbolic" thing, Stephen
 12:34 LisaMLane : uh oh
 12:34 gsiemens : Dead Poets Society
 12:34 LisaMLane : not dead connections, dead people
 12:34 mmvcentro : I haven't reached the SL cohort, need to find their schedule and make room to visit
 12:35 LisaMLane : we're making "dead" metaphorical?
 12:35 LisaMLane : ok, interesting
 12:35 roytwilliams : lol 
 12:35 LisaMLane : a lot of live people don't either
 12:35 wdrexler : lol
 12:35 coarsesalt : like say me :)
 12:36 roytwilliams : where is this going? are jokes back?
 12:36 voges : I agree Stephen.
 12:36 LisaMLane : it's OK, I'll blog, you can play with the idea if you want
 12:36 coarsesalt : More Questions Please
 12:36 ustreamer-87268 : Does someone have to be technologically networked (online)  to engage in connective learning?
 12:36 LisaMLane : but we reference those ideas in the now
 12:36 LisaMLane : email is not the only communication
 12:37 LisaMLane : George, I listened to your curatorial lecture today
 12:37 LisaMLane : and you said we're networking in a classroom with ideas
 12:37 roytwilliams : lord forbid email is all we have!
 12:37 LisaMLane : and have for a long time
 12:38 badgerjen01 : so is it the people or the knowledge that we are connecting?
 12:38 bee : oops...hello, sorry late...was having lunch :-)
 12:38 jennymackness : Should we be thinking more about dualities rather than either/or in terms of epistemology and ontology?
 12:38 Downes : Hi bee
 12:38 LisaMLane : exactly, thank you
 12:38 mmvcentro : hi Bee!
 12:38 wdrexler : If we build on them, aren't they part of the network?
 12:38 roytwilliams : what's the difference: where does the person end and the knowledge begin?
 12:38 LisaMLane : @wdrexler I'd say we are
 12:39 LisaMLane : I read your article, Stephen, and went to the library to check out Wittgenstein
 12:39 gsiemens : @wdrexler - yes, I would say they are
 12:39 anitsirk : @badgerjen01: i guess it would be both
 12:39 badgerjen01 : @anitsirk ... that doesn't seem to be what Stephen is saying
 12:39 LisaMLane : yes! even without visualizing them, you've got their artifacts
 12:39 fleep : Sorry for those who were interested in the Second Life cohort, our wiki page is at http://chilbo.wikispaces.com/Connectivism+course+Chilbo   (for some reason not letting me paste here!)
 12:40 LisaMLane : if you publish, you're part of it anyway
 12:40 LisaMLane : if your ideas are out there, you are
 12:40 bee : What is interesting when we learn online is that we go after what people suggest or mention...like wittgeinstein but this does not give us a hint of what he is talking about...in order to learn more, you need to talk about it but also have some background knowledge on what all this is about
 12:40 mmvcentro : thanks Fleep
 12:40 LisaMLane : and connected with the knowledge of elders who have come before
 12:42 jennymackness : Like systems thinking?
 12:42 bee : jungle forest or the Black forest? 
 12:42 fleep : So people have always been learning in a connectivit way, it's just becoming more.. explicit with the technology?
 12:43 roytwilliams : Or connected like ants? many interactions, and no one ant knows or even sees the whole picture, the picture or pattern emerges?
 12:43 LisaMLane : yes, please, because it helps the problem of the people being wrong
 12:43 fleep : Hmm, I have a hard time with that concept, I can't POSSIBLY see the whole network or understand all of its activity.
 12:44 ustreamer-87268 : That's a helpful distinction. Participation vs, overview of connections.
 12:44 LisaMLane : because then you can evaluate the whole system
 12:44 bee : cognitive dissonance is important
 12:44 roytwilliams : that's what's so interesting. ants rule OK
 12:44 LisaMLane : @Downes Where do you have that idea written out?
 12:44 susaneb : hello Bee!!
 12:45 bee : hi there
 12:46 bee : exposure then...not exactly connection
 12:46 LisaMLane : what happens if you only hang out with people you agree with?
 12:46 roytwilliams : stay in touch, that goes a long way, particularly if its in touch with the community and with the whole that you cant necessarily see 
 12:46 bee : being immersed in different contexts and to different people?
 12:46 roytwilliams : boring
 12:46 wdrexler : Re: participation vs overview...What if I contribute nothing, but use the knowledge built by others?  
 12:47 fleep-1 : Then you're a leech?  ;)
 12:47 wdrexler : So, I'm a leech - but is the leech part of the network?
 12:47 roytwilliams : what's the difference between the theories?
 12:47 bee : a parasite
 12:48 LisaMLane : that's what I don't like about the idea of storing knowledge in your "friends"
 12:48 fleep-1 : I guess I feel a _responsibility_ almost akin to a civic duty, to contribute back to my networks.
 12:48 badgerjen01 : is george a reluctant social-cognitivist? :)
 12:48 wdrexler : @fleep But everyone doesn't necessarily feel that way.
 12:48 roytwilliams : if you use knowledge you add to it (or subtract) both are interesting responses
 12:48 Downes : @badger - yes I think he is
 12:49 fleep-1 : @wdrexler I chalk that up to bad socialization then, just like there are "bad citizens" who don't give back to their community.
 12:49 bee : I learn a lot from my dogs...but I suppose I could learn from a flower if I had a bit more patience
 12:49 roytwilliams : priviledge power relation, or attrators?
 12:49 fleep-1 : (Not bad as in bad people, but as in not good engaged citizens)
 12:50 wdrexler : But, does the leech/parasite have an official role?  Any value?  Are they part of the process?
 12:50 LisaMLane : we need chocolate
 12:50 badgerjen01 : @dave ... this is the good part ;)
 12:50 fleep-1 : Hm. If they are benefiting from the process, and thereby benefiting their.. work/project/institution, then yes?
 12:50 bee : More shows you patterns 
 12:51 LisaMLane : so we could stick to the subject when we know what it is
 12:51 ustreamer-87268 : So more is different, and technology is what fosters the "more" that is enough to "qualify" as connectivst? But yes, later is fine. Oops. Boring, too?
 12:51 badgerjen01 : @coarsesalt is a little "slower" than the rest of us :)
 12:52 bee : more of what? if it is more of the same then the patterns just show one thing
 12:52 LisaMLane : mind cubbies
 12:52 bee : more of diverse? what pattern do you pick and which one do you disregard?
 12:53 LisaMLane : it does get us into the issue of the agenda of connectivism, but I guess that's for later also
 12:53 LisaMLane : you'll never get the living room floor clean, that's for sure!
 12:53 wdrexler : So there cannot or should not be instructional design based on connectivism?  
 12:53 iamarf : I believe the post was from emanuelazibordi http://www.emanuelazibordi.it/drupal/?q=CCK08+week+2.0
 12:53 fleep-1 : Yes that was my question, what's the practical application then?
 12:54 roytwilliams : try the Hole in the Wall project
 12:54 voges-1 : For me it was a very difficult hour. I did not pick up something like an importnat issue, maybe my languageknowlegde was the problem Thanks all the way. Good day, evening, night.
 12:55 Downes : Bye voges - try listening to the recording later, maybe
 12:55 bee : I wish I could be an educator without all the bureaucracy at school which leads you nowhere
 12:55 courosa : hi all
 12:55 bee : hi Alec
 12:55 wdrexler : Can we design learning environments that facilitate effective connective learning experiences?
 12:55 fleep-1 : hi @courosa!
 12:55 Downes : Hi Alec
 12:55 badgerjen01 : hey, alec ... it is Jennifer Maddrell btw
 12:55 wdrexler : Hi Alec.
 12:55 courosa : h:-)
 12:55 voges-1 : Yes Stephen, maybe that is a solution!
 12:56 sebathuer : hi wdrexler, you make a very good question!
 12:56 LisaMLane : yes, we should not have classes based on age
 12:56 mmvcentro : It would help me to follow better to know who is speaking, is there a way to know who has the mic?
 12:56 LisaMLane : cloistered away from adults
 12:56 bee : well, Stephen...in the moodle fora we are in llittle rooms
 12:56 fleep-1 : I guess I'm recognizing them by voice.
 12:56 fleep-1 : This is Stephen speaking
 12:56 LisaMLane : of course, that supports the babysitting idea, huh?
 12:56 fleep-1 : :)
 12:57 mmvcentro : I tried to do that Fleep but got lost
 12:57 courosa : I agree with that idea Stephen, artificial communities based solely on geography or institution ... vs. authentic communities.
 12:57 Downes : yes bee, exact;y
 12:57 courosa : not that there is not a crossover
 12:57 roytwilliams : there's some nice connectivist stuff in the one laptop per child project, at least in the projects where the kids use their laptops to go out into thier own communities and become researchers. 
 12:57 bee : little rooms make things more manageable
 12:57 fleep-1 : I think that's why online communities are so empowering @courosa
 12:57 bee : and allow you to control what is happening better
 12:58 roytwilliams : little room make little minds?
 12:58 mmvcentro : agree bee, little room have an end, blog connectiosn will take everywhere with no end
 12:58 LisaMLane : adult society wants the children out of the way
 12:58 sebathuer : are our education systema perapred for a connective learning?
 12:58 bee : do we need an end?
 12:58 courosa : @fleep agreed, comes down to why I connect better with those I meet online (and have never met f2f) than some of those people I went to highschool with.
 12:58 fleep-1 : (also might be differences between US and Canadian school systems, I don't know.)
 12:58 mmvcentro : I don't thinks so, but little rooms have one
 12:58 wdrexler : @sebathuer We're definitely not there yet.  But, we have to start somewhere.
 12:58 LisaMLane : Alec, you'd naturally have more in common with people who are active online.
 12:59 courosa : @lisa good point
 12:59 sebathuer : @wdrexle How can we start?
 12:59 bee : what I love online is the possibility of meeting people and finding  what I need fast
 12:59 wdrexler : I think it helps to participate in connected learning (so we're doing step one).  :-)
 01:00 mmvcentro : :-)
 01:00 sebathuer : yea ;)
 01:00 injenuity : Why not connect with the classroom across the hall?
 01:00 fleep-1 : @lisa, don't think it's just about being "online" but rather finding people who share same passions, just easier to FIND them online than locally.
 01:00 bee :  have them do is an expression I do not like :-(
 01:00 LisaMLane : yes, but doesn't that limit our scope to people like us?
 01:00 fleep-1 : Surprisingly, for me, the answer is no.
 01:00 courosa : @lisa there are a lot of levels there, obviously. For me, and my profession, yes, more in commons with those I meet. Socio-economic ... that's another piece. But I think it can also apply to those outside of this profession.
 01:01 fleep-1 : Lots of different kinds of people share a passion in education, technology, and virtual worlds.  
 01:01 courosa : Yea Saskatchewan! It's called the eJournalism project, sponsored by the government.
 01:01 susaneb : good idea, George....on school exchanges
 01:01 LisaMLane : Alec, that's where I get confused. In the ed tech world, it's so obviously correct.
 01:01 LisaMLane : But elsewhere?
 01:01 LisaMLane : not everone is online, and not everyone who is online participates
 01:02 courosa : @lisa would love to brainstorm about that some time, as it has been in the back of my mind for a long time ... and obviously, my bias doesn't help me understand the reality of those not centred around technology.
 01:02 ggatin : Is the video feed live? I'm not getting it.
 01:02 courosa : Glen, I think it is just audio.
 01:02 LisaMLane : @courosa oh do lets please
 01:02 sebathuer : @ggation no, only audio
 01:02 wdrexler : Excellent conversation and clarification.  Have to go teach now.  Happy weekend all.
 01:02 mmvcentro : @ggatin live video is off
 01:02 roytwilliams : connecting lives, not texts?
 01:02 fleep-1 : Bye @wdrexler!  
 01:02 ggatin : ah
 01:02 courosa : sorry I missed this, glad I caught the end.
 01:02 ggatin : not getting audio either
 01:02 sebathuer : bye wdrexler!
 01:03 ustreamer-87268 : Constructivist/experiental learning in the commuity leads to understanding connectivism in the abstract.
 01:03 courosa : @lisa, give me a couple of weeks, but let's do that for sure.
 01:03 bee : ciao and have a great weekend
 01:03 LisaMLane : thanks,  gentlemen
 01:03 mmvcentro : @ggatin audio is on
 01:03 LisaMLane : @courosa deal
 01:03 gsiemens : thanks all!
 01:03 ggatin : hmmm
 01:03 mmvcentro : thanks guys!
 01:03 fleep-1 : Bye all, thanks for great conversation.  :)
 01:03 anitsirk : thank you
 01:03 llanday : thanks
 01:03 Downes : Thanks folks :)
 01:03 injenuity : bye!
 01:03 sebathuer : thank to the speakers!
 01:03 JimFolk : Thank you!
 01:03 susaneb : ciao from Susan in Italy
 01:03 roytwilliams : thanks all 
 01:03 davidal : thanks ou all!
 01:03 mmvcentro : Have a nice weekend
 01:03 badgerjen01 : fun time, dudes!
 01:03 davidal : see you around!
 01:03 Downes : Thanks Jeff
 01:03 gsiemens : thanks jeff!!
 01:03 anitsirk : thanks jeff
 01:03 badgerjen01 : yeah, jeff ... good dude indeed
 01:04 susaneb : thanks to all for a great course
 01:04 sharongs : Thanks.  A lot to think about.
 01:04 anitsirk : have a nice weekend
 01:04 ustreamer-87268 : Thanks, all.
 01:05 sebathuer : It was a very interesting session! Thanks a lot! Bye :)



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