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Conversations Episode 12 10-12-08

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  • Length: 70:59 minutes (32.49 MB)
  • Format: MP3 Stereo 44kHz 64Kbps (CBR)

This week, our Conversation was about grading and assessment. Maria Knee and Lisa Parisi were joined by Sheila Adams for this rousing discussion.  The chat room was lively so be sure to check out the archive.

Chat:

2008-10-12 11:15:20 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Dave
2008-10-12 11:15:25 [Message] DaveC -> -EdTechTalk: Good morning.
2008-10-12 11:15:50 [Message] DaveC -> -EdTechTalk: oops, hold on, have to change my name...
2008-10-12 11:19:17 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Morning!
2008-10-12 11:19:39 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Morning everyone.
2008-10-12 11:19:47 [Message] Scott Shelhart -> -EdTechTalk: Hi all
2008-10-12 11:20:47 [Message] Scott Shelhart -> -EdTechTalk: I'll be away from the computer untill the show starts...just wanted to get logged on early.
2008-10-12 11:22:02 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: DaveC are you from NH?
2008-10-12 11:22:10 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Yes
2008-10-12 11:22:16 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: me too!
2008-10-12 11:22:17 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: I should be streaming
2008-10-12 11:22:46 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: I can hear you
2008-10-12 11:22:54 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Great Dave!
2008-10-12 11:23:13 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @sheila, where are you? I'm in New Boston (teaching in Weare)
2008-10-12 11:23:29 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: I teach in Rye and live in Hampton
2008-10-12 11:25:36 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Peggy!
2008-10-12 11:25:44 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Lisa and all
2008-10-12 11:25:54 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: audio is coming through fine for me
2008-10-12 11:26:58 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Are you hearing us Ken?
2008-10-12 11:27:53 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: I saw Minjah (sorry for the spelling) in the OzNz education FM this morning and I thought he said he was going to be here "later" which I took to be now, maybe he meant ettweekly...
2008-10-12 11:28:10 [Message] Scott Shelhart -> -EdTechTalk: MariaK?...audio level too high...distorting
2008-10-12 11:28:40 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Cathy
2008-10-12 11:28:43 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Hello :-)
2008-10-12 11:28:57 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Hello All
2008-10-12 11:29:06 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: no I cannot hear anything
2008-10-12 11:29:18 [Message] Scott Shelhart -> -EdTechTalk: better....
2008-10-12 11:29:23 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Hi alll!
2008-10-12 11:29:29 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: *all
2008-10-12 11:29:30 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Cathy & Dave C & Ken
2008-10-12 11:29:30 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken, check in ETT-A
2008-10-12 11:29:38 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: mornin'
2008-10-12 11:29:40 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken on the right side of the page
2008-10-12 11:29:42 [Message] Scott Shelhart -> -EdTechTalk: still a little clipping on peaks, but its ok
2008-10-12 11:29:43 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Ken, you have to click on the audio stream on the right side bar
2008-10-12 11:29:44 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Good morning Alice
2008-10-12 11:29:47 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: DaveC - where in NH
2008-10-12 11:29:50 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Alice
2008-10-12 11:30:01 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Click an icon under EdTechTalk A
2008-10-12 11:30:03 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria, teaching in Weare, sitting in New Boston.
2008-10-12 11:30:20 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: Morning Peggy and Lisa
2008-10-12 11:30:22 [Message] Scott Shelhart -> -EdTechTalk: Not twisted, just distorted:p
2008-10-12 11:31:08 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Good Morning everyone
2008-10-12 11:31:18 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: now I can hear
2008-10-12 11:31:21 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hello Linley
2008-10-12 11:31:24 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Great Ken
2008-10-12 11:31:34 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: hello everyone
2008-10-12 11:31:36 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Did the show get posted on the Conversations blog for last week?
2008-10-12 11:31:54 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: oops - I don't think it was....my mistake
2008-10-12 11:31:55 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Sheila!! Great to hear from you again!
2008-10-12 11:32:05 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Peggy!
2008-10-12 11:32:19 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: Here is a question, "Why do so many teachers grades NOT correlate with the assessment scores of students?
2008-10-12 11:33:19 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: My feeling is that because often teacher grades are biased based on talking with the student and partial credit where state scores are either right or wrong
2008-10-12 11:33:32 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: What is the purpose of grades
2008-10-12 11:33:43 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken are they based on student's achievement- their growth or their growth toward an arbitrary standard?
2008-10-12 11:35:14 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Are grades to show you where you are in relation to others or to show you what you have learned from where you started?
2008-10-12 11:35:29 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken-I think that's a great question because there has been some research about the differences between student grades and standardized test results and they don't always align.
2008-10-12 11:36:18 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: Well aren't grades suppose to reflect achievement and performance in class based upon a set criteria?
2008-10-12 11:36:43 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: We have 'progress reports' 5 weeks into a qtr and the only diff between them and qtrly reportcards is that progress reports are handwritten. They are essentially additional report cards.
2008-10-12 11:36:47 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: When I taught K I did a 4 page narrative- short skills checklist and then what that means- what they learned and where their strengths/weakeness lie and how we planned to help them.
2008-10-12 11:36:56 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: or instead of grading shouldn't we be teaching to the test since that is how we are assessed by a universal measurable standard
2008-10-12 11:37:25 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: and let me add I am NOT supportive or an advocate for standardized testing
2008-10-12 11:37:28 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: in my experience there were many times that even the grades within a specific grade level didn't align--it's a big challenge because parents don't understand why child gets A from one teacher and C from another
2008-10-12 11:37:37 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/fdtd-g.htm
2008-10-12 11:37:44 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: We move from no grades- progress reports thru grade 3 then move to grades from 4 up.
2008-10-12 11:37:51 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: great reference Alice
2008-10-12 11:38:04 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: thanks Alice
2008-10-12 11:38:13 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: It's relatively old, but it's still applicable
2008-10-12 11:38:33 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: very much so - Alfie getting us thinking
2008-10-12 11:38:49 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Are grades simply used to keep the students in line- motivated??
2008-10-12 11:38:56 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: Authentic Assessment should be the measure of student achievement across the country
2008-10-12 11:39:06 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: how does mastery learning fit into the concept of grading--students work on skills/concepts until they are mastered. Do they get an A because they mastered it or a C because they didn't do it the first time?
2008-10-12 11:39:18 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: from Alfie - "Grades tend to reduce students’ interest in the learning itself."
2008-10-12 11:39:32 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @mariaK Exactly
2008-10-12 11:39:58 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: Kids seem to be motivated by the work until high school, then it's all about the grades
2008-10-12 11:40:00 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: I tried rubrics. Thought it would clarify things...it didn't
2008-10-12 11:40:01 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: the problem with authentic assessment is that you cannot simply bubble answers, it requires more work than giving a book with an answer sheet, and it is not measurable with simple numbers
2008-10-12 11:40:25 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: It is also very hard to explain, Ken.
2008-10-12 11:40:28 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: are you allowed to include things like behavior, homework in grades or only academic grades?
2008-10-12 11:40:29 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: Authentic assessment is MUCH harder work
2008-10-12 11:40:39 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Parents need instruction to understand the results
2008-10-12 11:40:53 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Right.  I'm more interested in whether the student learns it, not whether or not they knew it during the 25 minutes they had a class test or quiz.
2008-10-12 11:41:01 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: Authentic provides and more realistic and clearer picture than anything else though
2008-10-12 11:41:26 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: so if those that be took the time to lay it out in the simplest terms perhaps there would be more buy-in
2008-10-12 11:41:41 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC agree completely
2008-10-12 11:42:02 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: I would like the kids to learn the stuff I teach because it's useful to them. The younger ones love science because it's fun. The computer classes are getting better, but not where I want them
2008-10-12 11:42:41 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: I really like the distinction between "assessment for learning" and "assessment of learning"--not sure who said it. "for" learning is formative to help teacher evaluate student progress; "of" learning is summative to show mastery of content
2008-10-12 11:42:45 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: After the authentic assessment then the teacher has to tech kids to transfer that learning to the paper/pencil standardized test- cause that is the one that will determine their future.
2008-10-12 11:42:53 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: The part that worries me is that with current practices, students can attend class,do the given assignments and pass -- often with decent grades. They never learn how to study. I have a freshman in college now and he came home for math help this weekend. Never considered doing practice problems, just the assignment he was given.
2008-10-12 11:42:55 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Open-ended projects are hard for my kids in 6-9. They are so used to more direct instruction.
2008-10-12 11:43:44 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @lisa- where's "whre they should be?"
2008-10-12 11:44:19 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: That is a great statement, "Learning for assessment v. Assessment for Learning"
2008-10-12 11:44:43 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: I think rubrics definitely help students to understand what the teacher expects
2008-10-12 11:44:58 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: Rubrics provide clear expectations for sure
2008-10-12 11:45:13 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: so long as they are designed appropriately and clearly
2008-10-12 11:45:54 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: Yes, who determines truly what is "grade level"
2008-10-12 11:45:59 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: I had a talk with the teachers on Wed@staff meeting. Developing common assessments for interventions, and I told them we're looking to see what they don't know, not trying to prove that they do know it.
2008-10-12 11:46:01 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Sheila it did clarify some things for me- made grading some things like graphic design less subjective- but I had kids choose to use them as I choose to get a B. I choose not to give this my best.
2008-10-12 11:47:03 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: I have read applications for incoming freshman to UCLA and often find that graduates with respectable grades and test scores often lack in areas of things like writing and such. Yet they certainly performed at grade level
2008-10-12 11:47:17 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: or in many cases "above grade level"
2008-10-12 11:47:34 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: NC test our students for "growth" everyone is expected to have 1 years growth
2008-10-12 11:47:40 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Anyone want to join the skype chat?
2008-10-12 11:47:45 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Skype call?
2008-10-12 11:47:53 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: @Maureen - right! I understand.
2008-10-12 11:48:01 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks Lisa I guess I also look at where they are and want to move them forward
2008-10-12 11:48:04 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: sometimes it's the textbook that defines where kids should be by the end of the year--in spite of state standards. They go through the book and finish by end of year.
2008-10-12 11:48:09 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken I see this with high school students. We are struggling with how to thing deeply and research accurately, not just jump through the hoops
2008-10-12 11:48:16 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: since a years growth is not determinable should all our students essentially have IEP's then?
2008-10-12 11:48:29 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: @ken...I actually believe yes
2008-10-12 11:48:30 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @alice you are so right
2008-10-12 11:48:37 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken, yes.
2008-10-12 11:48:39 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken I think that would be ideal
2008-10-12 11:48:54 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken And they should help write them!
2008-10-12 11:48:56 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @Lisa I agree too, but that requires work and effort on the part of many educators that simply do not want to do it
2008-10-12 11:49:04 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @alice yes they should
2008-10-12 11:49:09 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Should educators have the choice?
2008-10-12 11:49:18 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: Exactly it's much harder and our schools are not set up for this
2008-10-12 11:49:26 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: we set our standards for evaluations therefore why can't we work with students to do the same thing
2008-10-12 11:49:36 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: We actuallyhave 30 min for reading and 30 for math interventions for every student, and it is individualized and small group inst every day.
2008-10-12 11:49:43 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Maria-you're hitting the heart of the grading challenge!
2008-10-12 11:49:54 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @daveC that cannot be a high school though? Or is it?
2008-10-12 11:49:59 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: It's so hard for students to think about taking ownership for their learning
2008-10-12 11:50:04 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: no, middle.  grds 5-8
2008-10-12 11:50:25 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: It's hard for me to just use a rubric or a standard to grade kids. If I have a really bright talented kid I want more from them than I want/expect from a kid who is at a different level. I want them both to gain skills and confidence...but what that looks like is different
2008-10-12 11:51:12 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: The main point of my question is to emphasize the lack of effort and committment to the profession by so many that it hurts those of us that do make the efforts. Sometimes changes are hard and require more than simply handing out worksheets and collecting a pay check
2008-10-12 11:52:01 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: If I have a child who doesn't know math facts and then they hit more abstract math- it will impede their progress and they cannot move along..so they should be in a class that addresses their needs- so that they can move on to more abstract math when they have the basics down.
2008-10-12 11:52:03 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken, I hear you. I see many who feel defeated.
2008-10-12 11:52:03 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: so true Ken! authentic assessment requires hard work!
2008-10-12 11:52:20 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Or, Maureen, give them a calculator
2008-10-12 11:52:55 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @lparisi ;-)
2008-10-12 11:53:34 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @peegyG so I see it as we should get paid more for doing more and demonstrating that our approach is much more "authentic" and provides students with a richer learning environment. Rewards those that go above and beyond the basics
2008-10-12 11:53:41 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken - you are in the right group.  We have that conversation again and again.
2008-10-12 11:54:09 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: @adina
2008-10-12 11:54:14 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Adina
2008-10-12 11:54:15 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: I think it has to be about progress and growth for every student
2008-10-12 11:54:16 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @lisa I don't teach math- but hear all about the problems in their classes and in the science classes re kids who cannot do the math that they need to succeed in their classes... ie in bio a kid who can't balance equations.
2008-10-12 11:54:21 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Hi!  Sorry I'm late
2008-10-12 11:55:09 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Hi mrlembke!
2008-10-12 11:55:10 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @Ken-unfortunately teachers' pay isn't based on how hard they work
2008-10-12 11:55:49 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: Isn't there lots of evidence that streaming groups of kids doesn't work?
2008-10-12 11:55:54 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: We do that for 1 hour of language arts, but they still go back to reg class for core currriculum
2008-10-12 11:56:08 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Our teacher's pay "bonus" is based on test scores
2008-10-12 11:56:13 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: State test scores
2008-10-12 11:56:15 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: @peggyG and all that does is support my contention that why shoudl we work harder and diminish our value
2008-10-12 11:56:22 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: The extra hour is for support in helping them reach core
2008-10-12 11:56:26 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: I have already blogged about it
2008-10-12 11:56:26 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @lisa We've talked about that, but decided that some things like maturity level get in the way. For example a 3rd grader can read Lord of the Flies, but do they get it?
2008-10-12 11:57:00 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: @maureen That would definitely be an issue.  I don't know all about the program...just like the basic idea
2008-10-12 11:57:21 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: I think it should be optional and teachers like us that feel there is more to do and learn then we should be appropriately compensated and supported
2008-10-12 11:57:28 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: heard a great quote in the Mount Holyoke k-12 conference yesterday-"value what students have and provide what they need"--take them from where they are and move them forward
2008-10-12 11:57:40 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: that is a great quote
2008-10-12 11:57:48 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: gotta copy for later use
2008-10-12 11:57:48 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: I guess I think that kids who have higher level of skills in a certain area can move horizontally vs veritcally.
2008-10-12 11:57:56 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: I don't know of any public schools in Canada that offer bonuses. I thnk it is the sort of thing that would destroy collegiality
2008-10-12 11:58:15 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @PeggyG That is a great quote. Who said it?
2008-10-12 11:59:09 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: learning is a set of skills applied in a style and strategy of thinking. we teach students ways to think using a set of skills
2008-10-12 11:59:23 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria but when you get to the higher grades- don't the teachers need to be able to expect that the kids can read at a certain level, do math at a certain level?
2008-10-12 11:59:32 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Isn't this sort of a Montessori model
2008-10-12 11:59:44 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: one of the presenters in the conference-I can find it later. You can her the videos here. http://education.alumnae.mtholyoke.edu/Live_Web_Casts
2008-10-12 11:59:54 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Lisa love TERC!
2008-10-12 12:00:10 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @PeggyG Thanks
2008-10-12 12:00:40 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: Each learner should progress - that is the responsibilityof school -so it isn't okay that our learners don't read beacuse they would be staying in the same place
2008-10-12 12:00:44 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Part of problem in math is teachers who don't teach concept vs. just algorithms
2008-10-12 12:01:52 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @adina YES!
2008-10-12 12:02:03 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: A revolution is brewing!
2008-10-12 12:02:25 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @adina I never got the math concepts- but was a great cookbook math person- tell me what to do, what kind of probelm it is and I could do it. Never really got it.
2008-10-12 12:02:28 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: what do you think a principal should do if he/she discovers that students in one class are getting mostly A's and yet many are not meeting standards on standardized test?
2008-10-12 12:02:33 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: We need to use a lot of formative assess. in math, then we can support specificaly & move them forward
2008-10-12 12:03:00 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @Maureen.  Mee too.  I didn't get the concepts until I was becoming a teacher
2008-10-12 12:03:11 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: SAT are still very important for NC universities
2008-10-12 12:03:15 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: I'm a child of the sixties  - What if all the teachers had a march on Washington -....can you imagine
2008-10-12 12:03:27 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Peggy G I think that when we get our ERBs back we look to see if there is someplace that many of the kids are weak and try to adjust.
2008-10-12 12:03:29 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: A child is more than a test score!
2008-10-12 12:04:03 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @Peggy: that is exactly what is happening--often covers weak teaching
2008-10-12 12:04:03 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @Cathy, when my son applied to colleges early last year, most were more interested in HS grades and only cared about SATs (or ACTs) if the grades were lower than 3.0
2008-10-12 12:04:12 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: I agree, Maria - but i don't think the people making the laws understand that
2008-10-12 12:04:22 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria-absolutely! test scores definitely don't tell the whole story or even the most important story.
2008-10-12 12:04:40 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @Peggy, the test scores simply measure how well you take a test.
2008-10-12 12:04:59 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC agreed
2008-10-12 12:05:05 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC-I agree and how well teachers prepare them to take the test
2008-10-12 12:06:17 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: In a diversified calssroom (which we all have) there haved to be many ways to show what you know.
2008-10-12 12:06:29 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: I think the world is changing and we can no longer just fill the vessels with knowledge, but teach them how to think and do. How we teach/assess/grade that is a real challenge.
2008-10-12 12:07:01 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria more than a test score = True!!!  Is there another to measure student understanding and achievement to assess how well students are progressing and make sure teachers aren't slacking? I'd love to have it
2008-10-12 12:07:08 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: And...when do you get the results? we take beginning of year state tests (NECAP) but don't get the results until April or even May. Not a lot of formative help.
2008-10-12 12:07:35 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: the tests definitely must be looking at the continuum of learning and not just a single grade level since the test is being given in Nov.--(Lisa's social studies test)
2008-10-12 12:07:52 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @adina administrtor observations is one way to see what is happening in the room
2008-10-12 12:08:29 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith yes, if you have a competant admin. I'm one of the lucky ones that way, but i know others who are ???
2008-10-12 12:08:36 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Last year I had a group of students taking the NWEA and I didn't like their scores so I had them take it again 2 days later.  4 out of the 6 students went up by about 20 points.
2008-10-12 12:08:38 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Altho I don't teach in a public school there is something like AYP that schools around here aren't reaching. If my kid is an A- student in math-does this mean that in order to make AYP he now needs to be a A?
2008-10-12 12:09:19 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: We start in 2nd!!!
2008-10-12 12:09:58 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: One big issue with 'teaching to the test' is that sometimes the curriculum presents information in grade X that is tested in the next grade. Glossing over it just pushes the problem to another year.
2008-10-12 12:10:07 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith I am ready to be shot sown hear, but why aren't tachers in the US rising up against this testing insanity--we don't do this here and our schools are performing well on international scales
2008-10-12 12:10:23 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: We manipulate when we take tests- if it's after a certain date the kids get a higher level, but if before it's lower.
2008-10-12 12:11:13 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Isn't that why high school kids take the SAT several times
2008-10-12 12:11:24 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: and take SAT prep on Saturdays
2008-10-12 12:11:29 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith Rising up here means being labeled as not wanting to be accountable.  Politicians are better at winning the public.
2008-10-12 12:11:33 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC-you make a great point-tests only show where a student is at a particular minute/hour in time which is why they shouldn't be the only measure of student learning. Many just aren't good test takers and the tests don't necessarily measure what's important for them to learn/know.
2008-10-12 12:13:43 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @adina I believe parents don't like the testing focus either
2008-10-12 12:13:43 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @adina I believe you are more powerful, and more of a bellweather of public opinion than you think
2008-10-12 12:13:43 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Even within our own small school there is a rift between the lower grades and the higher grades as far as content/standards accountability goes.
2008-10-12 12:13:46 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: NCLB stinks in many ways, but it was the only reason the school I moved to received the support it needed to make the HUGE changes required to make it better
2008-10-12 12:13:52 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: The million dollar question - "How do we do it?
2008-10-12 12:14:37 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Then you have FERPA making things even worse.
2008-10-12 12:14:41 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith We do try, but our union becomes vilified by the politcians.  It is slow progress
2008-10-12 12:15:14 [Message] Ken -> -EdTechTalk: thanks for the great conversation and thought-provoking chat. Gotta run
2008-10-12 12:15:22 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Bye Ken
2008-10-12 12:15:23 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @adina unions have always been vilified, because they stand for change
2008-10-12 12:15:32 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: No unions in NC
2008-10-12 12:15:56 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Many parents are on our side, but not voters are currently parents
2008-10-12 12:16:21 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @adina, that's so true.  If it was good enough for me 20 years ago, it is good enough now.
2008-10-12 12:16:23 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: "not all"
2008-10-12 12:16:38 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC yep, that happens frequently
2008-10-12 12:16:42 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @Cathy Why? don't you need one? Who represents working & learing conditions?
2008-10-12 12:17:12 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: The governor
2008-10-12 12:17:30 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria you're certainly not failing on getting kids excited about learning!!
2008-10-12 12:18:12 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @CathyC That would be horrible here with Governor Arnold "Terminator"
2008-10-12 12:18:19 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: http://ncteachingconditions.org/
2008-10-12 12:18:21 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @lisa Do you still have regents or does NY do something different now?
2008-10-12 12:18:31 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Oops sorry @CathyE
2008-10-12 12:19:01 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @Cathy E Wow. That's a lot of trust. I wonder what would change if teachers had representation.
2008-10-12 12:19:04 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Grades are not based solely on test scores here
2008-10-12 12:19:16 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: saleries
2008-10-12 12:20:40 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: When I was in K I felt like a gatekeeper- it was a big part of my job to make sure that kids who were having trouble in K got screened/tested and got help so that they could succeed in 1st. Not to keep them from moving on, but to be sure he/she could be successful.
2008-10-12 12:21:05 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @CathyE-I love the NC learning standards and materials-I used to share them with my teachers as excellent resources to meet students needs!
2008-10-12 12:21:25 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: We have that discussion with parents as well
2008-10-12 12:21:43 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: One thing for sure in NC - we do it because we love it - not the $$
2008-10-12 12:21:59 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: We have to help parents to understand that the testis only one small measure
2008-10-12 12:22:38 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: test makers don't reward creative test takers! :-(
2008-10-12 12:23:08 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @cathy low salaries will not be sustainable for education --your children's children will get the dregs.
2008-10-12 12:23:29 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Hi all
2008-10-12 12:23:30 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: Hello minhaaj
2008-10-12 12:23:40 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: HI Minhaaj!
2008-10-12 12:24:02 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: sorry
2008-10-12 12:24:05 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: hopped out.
2008-10-12 12:24:20 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: HI Minhaaj!
2008-10-12 12:24:28 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Hey Sheila, Peggy. Lisa
2008-10-12 12:24:35 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Even though our saleries are low- we are all thankful we have a job in this economy.
2008-10-12 12:24:37 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: @Cahty E I just checked out that document: broken down by school--I bet there is pressure from admin to be more "positive" with the responses
2008-10-12 12:24:41 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: I do goal setting with them.
2008-10-12 12:24:50 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria that's one of the ways I talk to my kids.  We discuss why certain answers are suppused to be right or wrong.
2008-10-12 12:25:00 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: DaveC from OzNZ on flashmeeting earlier today ?
2008-10-12 12:25:05 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: $$$$ what does that say?
2008-10-12 12:25:07 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: even helping student teachers to prepare for the state teacher exam I had to tell them "don't overanalyze the question or rely on your own experience"-chooose the option that is most like what they are looking for...
2008-10-12 12:25:12 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @minhaaj: yes
2008-10-12 12:25:23 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: ahh nice to see you again.
2008-10-12 12:25:29 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: in CA they don't get the tests, but some previous questions are released ea year so we can use them to help prepare
2008-10-12 12:25:35 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Hi Minhaaj-great to see you!
2008-10-12 12:25:36 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith Some admins have tried - I have been lucky
2008-10-12 12:25:44 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: been a long time. How have you been Peggy ?
2008-10-12 12:25:58 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria Do we really car about what they know or how they can use what they know?
2008-10-12 12:25:59 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Sheila and Peggy passed the test on my show :D
2008-10-12 12:26:13 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: sorry- "care"
2008-10-12 12:26:17 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: We found out that there is a lot more information available after the tests than we first thought. We have "performance pathways" access now and can fin dout the type of questions and in many cases the exact question that students got wrong or right.
2008-10-12 12:26:32 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: So @lisa good bye to authentic assessment because inauthentic assessment is mandated
2008-10-12 12:26:34 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: I studied sooooo hard for that Minhaaj!  :)
2008-10-12 12:26:42 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: lol no you didn't. Liar
2008-10-12 12:26:47 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Yes Minhaaj-but I couldn't have passed Sheila's science test! what does that tell us?
2008-10-12 12:26:48 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC we do analysis like that also
2008-10-12 12:26:58 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: you were not supposed to.
2008-10-12 12:27:08 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: You told write things about UOA
2008-10-12 12:27:13 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: right.
2008-10-12 12:27:24 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @adina, up until now we thought it was only the big strands.  But now we can see the actual questions and that is helping a lot.
2008-10-12 12:27:37 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: DaveC do i have your skype name ?
2008-10-12 12:27:52 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: When I taught K I wanted the kids to have letter recognition, sound/letter association, etc... I did have a body of knowledge to try to teach. How far they got was different for each.
2008-10-12 12:27:53 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @DaveC What state?
2008-10-12 12:28:01 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @minhaaj, not sure, I don't know what you have :-) it is dave.chamberlain.nh though.
2008-10-12 12:28:07 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @adina, NH
2008-10-12 12:28:32 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: thanks now you are.
2008-10-12 12:28:33 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @Lisa-that is one of the saddest outcomes of NCLB--loss of a well rounded curriculum that includes the arts! what is tested gets taught--that's it!
2008-10-12 12:28:34 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: btw who is talking ?
2008-10-12 12:29:09 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Lisa and Maria are hosting the show.
2008-10-12 12:29:10 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @LisaP YES!!!
2008-10-12 12:29:11 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: Lisa Parisi  and Maria Knee are talking--also Sheila
2008-10-12 12:29:15 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @lisap when my daughter was in 5th grade her teacher told me that she needed to change from the empty vessel waiting to be filled and to actively pursue knowledge. Now at 26- she does, but it took 15 years!
2008-10-12 12:29:19 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: ahh great.
2008-10-12 12:29:45 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Ok now i am guessing whose voice is whose :D
2008-10-12 12:30:20 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Sounds like a G & T kid
2008-10-12 12:30:36 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Great mother to have.
2008-10-12 12:30:38 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @adina gin and tonic?
2008-10-12 12:30:53 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: LOL or gifted and talented :)
2008-10-12 12:31:11 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: gifted students can be hard to tackle.
2008-10-12 12:31:15 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: In a private school don't the parents have more power, cause they pay
2008-10-12 12:31:17 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: YES they can
2008-10-12 12:31:18 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: lots of trouble :)
2008-10-12 12:31:30 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @adina lol
2008-10-12 12:32:01 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: I teach at a private school- parents can sometimes have too much power.
2008-10-12 12:32:04 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: it IS about quality teachers! all private school teachers are not equally strong either
2008-10-12 12:32:05 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: i was a lot of trouble for my mother and i wasn't smart. so guess its not only gifted students who can be trouble.
2008-10-12 12:32:06 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: hehe
2008-10-12 12:32:29 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @PeggyG trur - not all are doing a quality job
2008-10-12 12:32:35 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @peggyg I agree!
2008-10-12 12:32:41 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: true not tur
2008-10-12 12:32:44 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Thats right Peggy.
2008-10-12 12:32:55 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Good teachers know :)
2008-10-12 12:33:05 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: TickyTacky school systems.
2008-10-12 12:33:19 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: I have to say you gotta rise up--I totally agree with Maria--why are teachers push-overs?
2008-10-12 12:33:44 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith - come march with me!
2008-10-12 12:34:28 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: As an outsider, all I hear from teachers in the network is how much they dispes NCLB and the testing mandate: you have to march. Now is the time
2008-10-12 12:34:32 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Good teachers are still out there, despite NCLB, etc...
2008-10-12 12:34:34 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @jansmith not all pushovers...to keep job, do have to do the good teaching along with the necessary while you fight
2008-10-12 12:34:47 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: I am very happy that my last child went to college this year. And not in public high school
2008-10-12 12:34:55 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: In subcontinent graduating and teaching was like for really intelligent people. Teachers from that era were fabulous.  I hope thats the case with US
2008-10-12 12:34:59 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: there was another excellent point made in the Mt. Holyoke conference yesterday--about the importance of "resistance" and not just teaching the "required" curriculum because it is required. Find creative ways to teach what you must, but teach what they need to know based on teacher's expertise!
2008-10-12 12:35:18 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: Folks I KNOW you are all brilliant teachers doing amazing things for your kids: I just hear your heart break again and agian.
2008-10-12 12:35:25 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Maria- I want you to come volunteer with ME
2008-10-12 12:35:27 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: @Maria- come volunteer in my school!
2008-10-12 12:35:35 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: What we need to do is influence the preservice teacher training programs
2008-10-12 12:36:36 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: lol @ its our turn in computer room
2008-10-12 12:36:37 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: I work hard to minimize it with kids
2008-10-12 12:36:41 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: @alicebarr-not sure that is the answer-I taught preservice teachers and they became different teachers once they entered the school culture and fell in line with the test mania.
2008-10-12 12:36:53 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: http://ettconversations.blogspot.com/
2008-10-12 12:37:00 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks for a great conversation!
2008-10-12 12:37:07 [Message] bcdtech/Maureen -> -EdTechTalk: Thank you -yet another great show.
2008-10-12 12:37:11 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: ThankYou for the show.
2008-10-12 12:37:13 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Before everyone disappears, if you have 2 minutes to view http://www.teachertube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=1ce56ee8080149d5de96 I would really appreciate any feedback.
2008-10-12 12:37:17 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: It was really fun.
2008-10-12 12:37:27 [Message] jansmith -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks all: keep on rockin in the ed world!
2008-10-12 12:37:29 [Message] alicebarr -> -EdTechTalk: @PeggyG yes I can see thatt
2008-10-12 12:37:31 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks ladies
2008-10-12 12:37:38 [Message] Cathy E -> -EdTechTalk: great job
2008-10-12 12:37:46 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: I think we need to continue this conversation-maybe we can tie the homework into the grading conversation :-)
2008-10-12 12:38:36 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: lol
2008-10-12 12:38:57 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: antarctica_NH
2008-10-12 12:38:58 [Message] adina -> -EdTechTalk: @PeggyG LOL but I think it is part of it
2008-10-12 12:39:03 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: I can't wait to follow the Antarctica experience!
2008-10-12 12:39:11 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: http://www.ryejrhigh.org/ellwood
2008-10-12 12:39:33 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks everyone and please take a minute and 32 seconds for http://tinyurl.com/4ae5r9 :-)
2008-10-12 12:39:33 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: the k12online opening keynote is some day next week but not scheduled yet
2008-10-12 12:39:41 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks Minhaaj!
2008-10-12 12:39:50 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: You are a faster typer than me!
2008-10-12 12:39:59 [Message] lparisi -> -EdTechTalk: k12onlineconference.org
2008-10-12 12:40:00 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: i am :)
2008-10-12 12:40:07 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: already following her.
2008-10-12 12:40:17 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Sorry for being late. I so wanted to join Convo
2008-10-12 12:40:30 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: I am leaving for dubai tomorrow
2008-10-12 12:40:34 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: so had to run errands.
2008-10-12 12:40:40 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: @minhaaj, you going to stop in at EdTechRoundup too?
2008-10-12 12:40:44 [Message] sheila -> -EdTechTalk: Sounds great Minhaaj!
2008-10-12 12:40:50 [Message] PeggyG -> -EdTechTalk: thank you all! very stimulating conversation!
2008-10-12 12:40:50 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: sure. wheres it ?
2008-10-12 12:41:52 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: Edtechroundup is in about 2 1/2 hours from now - link is at http://edtechroundup.wikispaces.com/12.10.08
2008-10-12 12:41:53 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks for joining us everyone
2008-10-12 12:42:09 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: sure i'll join if i am around
2008-10-12 12:42:19 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: Thanks Maria for a lovely session.
2008-10-12 12:42:19 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: then back here at 7 for ett weekly :-)
2008-10-12 12:42:30 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: heeh you are addicted DaveC
2008-10-12 12:42:40 [Message] DaveC (the other Dave) -> -EdTechTalk: It's my escape.
2008-10-12 12:42:49 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: Glad you could join us Minhajj - btw - loved you pictures of the mountains.
2008-10-12 12:43:07 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: oh yea  i love em.
2008-10-12 12:43:12 [Message] MariaK -> -EdTechTalk: You live in a very beautiful country.
2008-10-12 12:43:12 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: No Place like Pakistan
2008-10-12 12:43:24 [Message] minhaaj -> -EdTechTalk: i do no doubt. We call it switzerland of Pakistan.



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