Conversations #82 - November 7, 2010
Ageism - Does age take away or enhance teaching? What are the perceptions of "young" or "old" teachers in the classroom?
11:26:56 Caty E : Were you ears burning yesterday? I was teaching a group of new teacher and I talked about how wonderful ya'll are :)
11:30:19 Lisa Parisi : The ustream and ETTA are up
11:30:45 MariaK : sheila is coming to us live from the sunshine state
11:31:51 Maureen : I can get ETTA, but nothing on ustream other than picture- no audio
11:32:08 MariaK : it was working
11:32:40 MariaK : anyone else hear the ustream
11:33:01 kathbc : I can't hear anything either, but figured it must be glitch on my end.
11:33:29 Caty E : no audio on USTREAM here
11:33:37 Caty E : but ETTA loud and clear
11:33:50 Lisa Parisi : No ustream today. Sorry. :(
11:34:34 Caty E : no problem - ya'll are great even 3 seconds late :)
11:34:37 MariaK : we'll just stay in ETTA
11:34:46 kathbc : have it in ETTA
11:35:26 Maureen : It's fine- glad to hear Sheila- WHere are you? Still in Florida?
11:35:32 MariaK : our dear sheila went to the NASA tweet up
11:35:44 Caty E : Maria - a little louder please
11:35:49 MariaK : thanks
11:35:51 loonyhiker : hi y'all!
11:36:40 Lisa Parisi : Hi Pat. Hi Karen
11:36:45 Lisa Parisi : Sound in etta only
11:36:46 Caty E : It is chilly in NC too
11:37:01 loonyhiker : cold here in SC too
11:37:06 McTeach (Karen) : Good Morning Lisa!
11:37:19 Lisa Parisi : Hello Cheryl
11:37:31 loonyhiker : i was invited to a launch once but due to rain it was postponed for the next wk and i didn't get to see it
11:37:52 loonyhiker : instead i got to go to some teacher classes which was really cool
11:37:55 Cheryl : Hi Lisa trying to get some sound!
11:38:10 Lisa Parisi : ETTA is where the sound is. Top right side bar
11:40:35 McTeach (Karen) : I have the same problem with my class. They just don't want to be wrong!
11:40:43 Lisa Parisi : Yes, Karen.
11:40:53 Lisa Parisi : Hi @minhaaj
11:41:02 minhaaj : Hey Lisa :)
11:41:07 Lisa Parisi : Cheryl, do you have sound now?
11:41:11 sheila : @loonyhiker - next time take me? ;)
11:41:17 McTeach (Karen) : Mine all want to do paper slide videos now!
11:41:18 cheryl : Yep got it going thx
11:42:19 sheila : Hi Minhaaj! Hope your year is going well! Must be getting dark and cold now for you!
11:42:54 loonyhiker : @sheila it was years ago - asked my principal for the week off and he told me to "go get launched!" LOL
11:42:55 minhaaj : Yea Sheila. its already dark and -6 and its not yet mid-november
11:43:10 minhaaj : hows NASA thing going for you ?
11:43:30 sheila : Launch delayed until Nov 30. :(
11:43:47 sheila : But I had a wonderful time.
11:43:53 minhaaj : i am sure it is going to be a nice experience however
11:45:22 loonyhiker : that temple grandin movie was great!
11:45:34 loonyhiker : i loved her TED talk too
11:45:38 Lisa Parisi : http://www.zefrank.com/zesblog/archives/2008/09/stumpy_movie.html
11:46:23 Caty E : Look at the Autism numbers: http://www.poodwaddle.com/clocks/worldclock/
11:47:49 minhaaj : Its like Nick Vujicic, man without arms and legs.
11:47:55 minhaaj : but still very gifted.
11:51:09 loonyhiker : we don't have a union and there is no age criteria - we get paid $10 per day for unused sick day up to 180 days when you retire
11:51:40 loonyhiker : i figure i'm worth more than $10 per day so I used as many of those days as i could the 3 years moving to retirement
11:51:55 sheila : Wow! not much of an incentive $10/day but it's something.
11:52:15 Maureen : NH is a lot like China....
11:52:16 cheryl : we have no age but we do have 30 yrs of service for retirement
11:52:29 cheryl : I am in florida
11:52:45 loonyhiker : we can retire after 28 years but not many do
11:52:57 Maureen : I have to work til I die. TIAA-Cref is all we have at independent schools.
11:53:27 loonyhiker : i started teaching when i was 20
11:54:17 Maureen : We have teachers who are 70+ at my school. Sometimes a good thing.
11:55:48 loonyhiker : i retired from special ed after 30 years and u should see the funny omg looks i get! pretty rare to spend whole career in sped lol
11:56:22 Maureen : Most of our teachers are around 50, very few in their 20s, some in late 30s and 40s
11:56:28 sheila : That's true @loonyhiker! Kudos to you for sure!
11:57:22 loonyhiker : i wouldn't have retired is my hubby hadn't begged me to go traveling. we compromised so now i teach teachers in the summer
11:57:24 cheryl : I have 22 yrs in SPED and 3 in reg ed
11:57:50 Maureen : Do they have a different way to connect? That we don't know about?
11:57:52 Caty E : here, here for us old folks
11:58:08 loonyhiker : uh oh i lost sound
11:58:08 Maureen : lost audio
11:58:21 McTeach (Karen) : Me too
11:58:24 cheryl : ME too!:(
11:58:39 Lisa Parisi : We're having a great conversation.
11:58:41 Lisa Parisi : LOL
11:58:59 Lisa Parisi : We seem to have lost Maria
11:59:00 McTeach (Karen) : If a great conversation happens and no one is around to hear it... :P
11:59:02 sheila : Where oh where is Maria? :)
11:59:09 Maureen : last thing I heard was Sheila- "I think that parents looks at people....."
11:59:23 Maureen : You're back
11:59:25 Lisa Parisi : We're back
11:59:30 cheryl : *) yeah
12:00:14 MariaK : comcast failed me again!
12:00:27 loonyhiker : u r back
12:00:38 Lisa Parisi : Betsy! Hello!
12:00:57 Lisa Parisi : Do you want to come into the skype call? Tell me your skype ID and I will call you in.
12:01:19 bpsargent : Hello, sorry I'm so late.
12:01:50 matt motagne : great topic
12:01:54 bpsargent : Can I follow this/participate without Skype?
12:02:22 matt motagne : as an educational technology specialist, I see LOTS of ageism/ageist comments...
12:02:28 Lisa Parisi : yes. Audio is in ETTA on the top right sidebar
12:02:36 sheila : Hi Matt! Dusted off Earthbridges this weekend! :)
12:02:37 Caty E : Oh Lisa that is sad - that you don't know the folks in your building
12:02:40 Maureen : can you say more Matt?
12:03:06 matt motagne : the comments go like, "veteran teachers won't try new things...younger teachers will." that is so not the case...
12:03:12 McTeach (Karen) : Good morning, Matt!
12:03:21 matt motagne : awesome, sheila!!!
12:03:26 Lisa Parisi : Don't we old teachers here prove that wrong, Matt?
12:03:32 Maureen : @Matt- I agree- at my school no one, regardless of age, will try anything new
12:03:38 matt motagne : here is my theory on age and change, lisa...
12:03:47 Lisa Parisi : Matt, come into skype
12:03:51 donnaroman : Got it! Hello.
12:03:59 Lisa Parisi : HI Donna! Welcome!
12:04:09 loonyhiker : when i am teaching young teachers, they know a lot of tech but not how to apply it to the classroom
12:04:15 matt motagne : older teachers are actually BETTER at change and more open than younger teachers...because they've been part of so many change cycles...
12:04:18 Lisa Parisi : True, Pat.
12:04:34 sheila : I'm seeing that too Matt.
12:04:38 Lisa Parisi : Yes, Matt. And they don't have to worry about management and parents and etc.
12:04:47 cheryl : I agree and have experienced the same thing Pat!
12:05:15 Maureen : @matt sometimes I think with tech that that backfires- I feel like there is still a feeling of this too shall pass, since veteran teachers have seen things come full circle so many times
12:05:16 matt motagne : people don't know I'm 40, so they say all sorts of ageist remarks to me
12:05:51 sheila : No way! You're 40, Matt?
12:05:52 matt motagne : @maureen...in many cases they younger teachers are even MORE resistent to technology supported learning design
12:06:22 matt motagne : yup...Four Zero
12:06:26 Maureen : @matt- I haven't seen any age difference at my school
12:06:59 matt motagne : @maureen...truthfully, I don't know if I've seen a difference either...but that is kinda my point...
12:07:15 loonyhiker : many of my young tchrs seem so overwhelmed by all the paperwork and standards that they are required to complete that they see tech as outside the box and one more thing to learn
12:07:28 cheryl : I think the younger teachers believe they know so much more than the rest of us when it comes to technology that they just close there mind to what we have to offer - experienced that this week!
12:07:46 Lisa Parisi : How Cheryl?
12:07:55 Lisa Parisi : Anyone want to join skype?
12:08:02 Lisa Parisi : HI Nancy!
12:08:09 nancyvonw : HI Lisa!
12:08:12 Caty E : My people are just waiting for me to walk out the door - cause I push them so hard all the time. Some of them just want to forget the tech is there.
12:08:26 Maureen : I think young teachers must get sick of being thought of as "cute"
12:08:39 nancyvonw : HI Maria!
12:08:44 Lisa Parisi : I want to be "cute" again, Maureen.
12:09:02 Maureen : @Lisa- it's been so long, I can't remember cute
12:09:19 matt motagne : the 'incentive' in the long run, means nothing...do what is right for you, your school, and your students...
12:09:36 Lisa Parisi : Welcome back, Betsye.
12:09:52 cheryl : They think they already know how to use technology int he classroom but I find that they know what they know and not necessarily school related technology! and don't understand the difference!
12:09:55 matt motagne : there used to be lots more play...I miss that...there used to be less homework...I miss that...
12:10:13 Caty E : @Cheryl -- SO TRUE
12:10:18 sheila : and being outside!
12:10:23 Lisa Parisi : There used to be lots more freedom. I miss that.
12:10:49 Caty E : All we do is assess and look at data
12:11:04 McTeach (Karen) : I'm multi-tasking...sorry
12:11:19 McTeach (Karen) : No one ever believes me when I say my age
12:11:25 Maureen : I kind of feel like a new teacher all the time- most of the things I do in my classroom I am doing I am doing for the first time. It changes constantly. Doesn't mean I forget the pedagogy, but applying it in new ways makes it all new, all the time
12:11:39 cheryl : @Caty E agreed! my Super won Data Collection Super of the year for Fl. (LOL)
12:11:51 nancyvonw : I also think starting in a new school, particularly when new to teaching is a fairly stunning situation. YOu need to reach a comfort level to start taking risks
12:12:01 sheila : I'm going to start saying my age in Saturn's years . . . :)
12:12:08 Lisa Parisi : LOL
12:12:16 matt motagne : a tough thing about being a new teacher is the pressure to conform...only a good leader can build a community that allows everyone to flourish and play to their strenghts
12:12:25 loonyhiker : i love Lisa's post so if u have time, check it out
12:12:43 Lisa Parisi : That's Pat. I am feeling frustrated.
12:12:57 McTeach (Karen) : I don't have that spark and it's only my fifth year
12:13:13 sheila : Do you know your strengths as a beginning teacher? I didn't.
12:13:16 loonyhiker : but u put in words what many people are feeling - i just wish more admin would read it and understand
12:13:17 Lisa Parisi : Karen, you need to think about why not. And then change that.
12:13:42 McTeach (Karen) : Not sure it's something I can change. Time to move on.
12:13:48 Maureen : @Karen- I'm starting get to worried... that's not the 1st time I've heard that kind of thing from you lately. We'll have to stage an intervention
12:13:55 Lisa Parisi : Karen, we need to talk. Please.
12:14:14 loonyhiker : my kids looked forward to learning a skill that i learned that summer
12:14:20 cheryl : @Loonyhiker @lisa great post ! it is so funny I was just saying that to some other teachers this week.
12:14:23 McTeach (Karen) : I'm open to any help or conversation
12:15:39 matt motagne : I know what you mean, Karen. teaching is exhausting in so many ways...one thing that is difficult is being stuck in a system that was build for another time...all the while knowing that the system in place is not the one that will help our students reach their full potential
12:15:42 Caty E : @Karen the fact that you are here in this conversation is good for your being.
12:15:58 Maureen : I have a friend who does that. She saves her newsletters- doesn't date them- does it by week- ie week #5, etc... and recycles them, since nothing changes in her room
12:16:30 loonyhiker : i find that connecting with others (like y'all) that really motivate and inspire me
12:16:37 cheryl : @lisa I had a similar experience! wondered when I would get to the point of my lesson plans done from year to year! Thank goodness it never happened!
12:16:52 matt motagne : I think there is some serious mental health research that needs to be done on teachers...we're coerced to do many things that we know are not right by kids...that takes a toll...
12:17:21 loonyhiker : i thought that i could use the same stuff the next year but i was always changing and tweaking them to make them better
12:17:34 McTeach (Karen) : Matt...It's also exhausting for me in that it takes me so long to do my grading or write out lesson plans for my boss that I have no time for myself.
12:17:35 sheila : Interesting Matt!
12:17:47 McTeach (Karen) : Yes ma'am
12:17:48 Maureen : When I taught K I had units that I had built, but I always changed things. But after reading the book whisperer- thank Karen- I think that if I had to do it all again, I would make drastic changes- instead of building more "cute" stuff into my plans
12:17:49 cheryl : One reason I like SPED is the IEP I can indivualize and blame it on the IEP!!!
12:18:19 matt motagne : @Karen...those are the exact kinds of things that take a toll...
12:18:33 loonyhiker : i think i used the stuff i had as the backbone but then changed the meat (why reinvent the wheel)
12:18:36 bpsargent : With all this talk about skills for the 21st c. and a role for technology as well as the need for citizenship, is it all getting buried in standardized testing? Who is going to realize that something major has to change in education and it's not more tests.
12:18:48 sheila : I just need a secretary and that would eliminate some wasted hours.
12:18:55 cheryl : But they are making us cookie cutter teachers - NOT GOOD!
12:19:14 bpsargent : I wonder if it is more the support for being creative in your classroom.
12:19:36 Maureen : @sheila- I've been grading and grading last weekend, this weekend- but at least it's grading projects that are being completed, not just busy work
12:19:46 McTeach (Karen) : I just can't deal with the lack of respect from middle school kids that almost seems to be "acceptable" or the norm. They talk to their parents one way and they think they can treat me the same way.
12:19:48 Lisa Parisi : I'm waiting, Betsye, for someone to recognize that.
12:20:05 Maureen : @karen- I agree.
12:20:40 sheila : More than correcting, making phone calls, doing the budget, scheduling guests and field trips. . . .
12:20:42 Maureen : @Karen, but some parents do still make the kids toe the line. I have a few who constantly undermine me, but most don't
12:20:42 loonyhiker : i was a "bad" teacher - i yessed them to death on what i was supposed to do and then did what was best for the kids - since the kids were successful, no one questioned my methods
12:20:44 matt motagne : that is tough, Karen...I don't know how that student attitude is impacted by the leadership and school culture...
12:20:50 Caty E : @Karen - Lack of respect is a big issue - even in elementary school
12:21:02 cheryl : New teachers appear to be fitting into the scripted teaching better than the veteran teachers
12:21:50 McTeach (Karen) : Caty...I actually got in the face of a 4th grader recently who was completely disrespectful to me. I was just walking by and he just popped off at me.
12:21:52 Maureen : But where do you find kids who respond in the same way as the script? I never found them to be helpful
12:22:02 Caty E : Good veteran teacher gain boldness as the years go by - they stand up for the kids and themselves
12:22:42 cheryl : BUt our teachers are being observed and if they are not following the scripted they are called in!!
12:22:51 McTeach (Karen) : Boring???
12:23:01 Lisa Parisi : Been there Cheryl. Am getting there now.
12:23:29 Maureen : @karen I have a parent who is now emailing other teachers about me, questioning what I do in class. She and I have met, but she doesn't agree with my curriculum. Wants her child pulled from my class.
12:23:46 nancyvonw : Lisa, agree as long as the program has a variety of activities to select for their students.
12:23:52 matt motagne : I'm not sure new teachers should ever be in a classroom by themselves...perhaps 2-3 years as an apprentice makes sense...now that I think about it, I don't think anyone should be in a class solo...how powerful would it be if we had 2-3 adults working with groups of students??
12:24:00 loonyhiker : i admit to telling kids that i would follow a scripted lesson when i was observed because i got nervous and asked them to follow along. they usually were great about that (shame on me)
12:24:02 cheryl : SO glad I am out of the classroom 'cos I am not a scripted teacher!!!
12:24:13 Caty E : My admin is great - they love the change
12:24:21 Maureen : @matt I used to team teach when I taught in K- best thing in the world- for the teachers and the kids
12:24:23 McTeach (Karen) : Maureen...I have a parent who emails the principal about me whenever she questions something I say in my classroom! Doesn't talk to me first...goes right to the boss. And she's a teacher! (professor, actually)
12:24:28 Caty E : they are helping me push
12:24:50 bpsargent : Agree with loonyhiker, I did that too when a beginner teacher so many years ago, but sounds as if this is getting harder to do. Parents are different too. Gen X expectations were rough, Things should be getting better, but who is getting the message across to the people who can truly effect change? The business community mouth the right words, but then it takes the easy way out and heads for more testing. Won't work that way.
12:24:54 sheila : @Maureen - that's too bad. So much wasted energy on that for both sides.
12:24:57 McTeach (Karen) : That's what I'm feeling...I just can't fight this fight
12:25:04 loonyhiker : i think scripted lessons are easier for the admin to grade teachers on - make teachers fit the same mold
12:25:10 Maureen : @Karen- It's hard being undermined all the time, but aside from my feelings, she isn't hurting the rest of my class.
12:25:19 matt motagne : @maureen...it is powerful for learning and growth...but it is expensive...and the public clearly isn't interested in spending more money on education...
12:25:35 Lisa Parisi : Karen, we need to keep fighting. I can help you find ways to manage the garbage better so you can do what you know you need to do.
12:25:40 cheryl : When I train the teachers in Tech they are excited and love it but don't know how to include it into their scripted program!
12:25:43 bpsargent : And most admionistrators were treachers. How easy it is to forget.
12:25:44 McTeach (Karen) : Maureen...unfortunately, my boss doesn't like me so she's happy to use the material to push me around.
12:25:57 McTeach (Karen) : Thanks Lisa! I appreciate that.
12:26:10 bpsargent : Can you change schools?
12:26:10 Maureen : @Matt- agree it's expensive, but you can do so much more.. and isn't that what we want for the kids?
12:26:13 loonyhiker : Oh Karen! How could she not like you! We love you!
12:26:47 McTeach (Karen) : Pat...she doesn't like me because I question her random decisions. No one has ever done that before.
12:26:48 bpsargent : Sounds as if you have the opportunity for great support here, Karen. That might make a big difference.
12:26:56 Caty E : @Karen - I had the same issue my first year of teaching. I almost quit - I cried everyday. But I am so glad I stuck it out. I am in a great school now, with great admin.
12:27:14 Maureen : @karen- I have mixed support from admin. In the past the head moved me out of Kindergarten to science/tech because a parent-with lots of juice- complained. It is not fun being the pawn in a power play
12:27:23 McTeach (Karen) : @bp...I wouldn't have made it this far without the support of my amazing PLN! They really ARE my family!
12:27:24 matt motagne : ugh, that sounds awful...
12:28:07 matt motagne : I would love to get VC funding to start a school like Our School at Blair Grocery in New Orleans...I would be entirely experience based, multi-age/one room school house...
12:28:35 Lisa Parisi : I'm there Matt. 9 years to retirement then I'm there.
12:28:38 bpsargent : Come visit the Phoenix School in Salem, MA. That's what I did 30 years ago.
12:29:50 matt motagne : in my school we'd learn around experiences...like a garden...think of all the incredible learning from fully engaging in a garden project...the four walls feel more and more confining all the time...
12:30:07 cheryl : Our decisions are being made on the county level all schools - principal doesn't even have the ability to say ok your way works
12:30:52 matt motagne : @bp...isn't it funny, that some of these things that we want to do are decades old?? Think of the 'non-graded, continuous progress' schools of the 60s and 70s...
12:31:18 bpsargent : For kids to learn to make choices, teachers must also have this freedom and expectation soon. Interesting that the Chinese are trying to model USA ed for creativity and US ed is modeling the traditional Chinese approach. SWomething's wrong.
12:31:19 Lisa Parisi : http://ettconversations.blogspot.com/
12:31:32 nancyvonw : Yea!
12:31:33 loonyhiker : thanks everyone! this was a great conversation!
12:31:39 donnaroman : It was great, thank you!
12:31:42 Lisa Parisi : Thank you all for coming!
12:31:44 cheryl : thanks! great conversation!
12:31:45 nancyvonw : oh, :)
12:31:49 nancyvonw : HI Maria!
12:31:53 McTeach (Karen) : Thanks again, ladies!
12:31:57 bpsargent : Sorry i missed the beginning and never got sound, but thank you.
12:32:06 matt motagne : @bp...we had school administrators from Shanghai on campus a month ago...and that is exactly what they expressed...they want more creativity and innovation across all classes...we seem to want more standardization...
12:32:14 bpsargent : It was sadly eye-opening.
12:32:28 nancyvonw : Bye, thank you!
12:32:28 Caty E : have a great week
12:32:30 loonyhiker : bye y'all! have a great week
12:32:39 matt motagne : chow...great webcast!!!!
12:32:40 sheila : thanks all!
12:32:47 matt motagne : awesome topic...
12:33:06 bpsargent : Lisa: Tsalk top you soon to figure out to get better connected.
12:33:34 bpsargent : Great to see so many A week in the Lifers here.
12:47:17 MariaK : bye