Connectivism and Connective Knowledge Online Course
October 31, 2008
09:52 coarsesalt : hey folks...
09:53 coarsesalt : we're gonna start on time today!
09:54 coarsesalt : at least... so says me :)
09:55 jpachon : hi
09:56 coarsesalt : hey
09:58 LisaMLane : are they in a mebeam room?
09:59 coarsesalt : should be streaming in ustream
09:59 coarsesalt : the video that is
10:00 LisaMLane : what technology are we seeing that can go from one video to another?
10:01 ustreamer-41185 : I'm using Webcammax
10:01 ustreamer-41185 : http://mebeam.com/edtechtalk
10:02 jennymackness : It's Ok Stephen - we know what you look like!
10:03 ustreamer-78623 : maybe the blue boxes are recycling their video feed?
10:03 LisaMLane : this is very cool
10:04 jennymackness : @ Lisa In what way cool?
10:04 LisaMLane : seeing multiple video feeds
10:04 jennymackness : If we could!
10:05 LisaMLane : if I turn on my webcam, do I have power?
10:05 LisaMLane : now they need name tags
10:06 anitsirk : hello are we early today or am i on a different time?
10:06 jennymackness : Nice voice Dave
10:06 wdrexler : Hi All.
10:06 jpachon : happy hallowen...i see a black image..
10:06 jpachon : and blue
10:06 anitsirk : i see george
10:07 jennymackness : Yes I think it did distract the discussion
10:07 LisaMLane : we find bright shiny things distracting
10:08 coarsesalt : post your questions please :)
10:09 jennymackness : Please could someone distinguish between control, authority and pwere
10:10 LisaMLane : an emotional response will always come first
10:10 jon_k : Stephen - did you think that the experiment was useful in hindsight? What would you have done if you feel it wasn't as effective as it could've been?
10:11 wdrexler : I'm very interested in differentiating between perceived and actual power. How does this impact behavior in a learning network?
10:11 jennymackness : LOL
10:11 anitsirk : stephen is pretty dark today
10:12 LisaMLane : we're gonna wrest it back as quickly as possible
10:12 jon_k : Do you feel that this move would have a long-lasting effect on bringing in people who were lurkers?
10:12 LisaMLane : seeing black screen, making metaphors
10:12 jennymackness : What do Stephen and George think about power in children's classrooms
10:12 jon_k : and was that the purpose?
10:13 coarsesalt : @jon_k i doubt it
10:13 ustreamer-41185 : If any lurkers would like to make their video presence felt, you can go to http://mebeam.com/edtechtalk
10:13 jon_k : but there was no depth to the conversations in moodle
10:13 jon_k : @coarsesalt - that's what I thought too
10:14 LisaMLane : I have gotten the impression that overall participation has declined a lot -- is that correct?
10:15 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Hi Stephen
10:16 LisaMLane : there's Stephen, we have hair power now
10:16 anitsirk : oh oh. stephen's video works and the video stream freaks out and breaks up
10:16 coarsesalt : @Lisa yup. i would say that that is fair
10:16 ustreamer-66891 : this is the first time I really attend something of cck08 thanks to twitter :) (I do read stuff of the course)
10:16 LisaMLane : @coarsesalt I wonder about why
10:17 jon_k : @lisa it could be that enthusiasm has worn off, and people who are not in it for credit have no carrot to continue
10:17 LisaMLane : @jon_k I'm wondering if anyone left due to a feeling of loss of control
10:17 jennymackness : I'm not in for credit and I'm still here!
10:18 coarsesalt : CREDIT --> jennymackness
10:18 jennymackness : @ Lisa Loss of control over time
10:18 jon_k : entropic decay? hahaha
10:19 LisaMLane : @jenny, that too, but some said they were lonely
10:19 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I think there is plenty of control for the course, but there are lots of other demands external to the course and my presence in other space and time are competing for my attention.
10:19 anitsirk : i don't take CCK08 for credit, but my participation has declined tremendously as the course has to take the backseat to my work stuff etc. though i try to do the readings and the live sessions
10:19 jennymackness : @Lisa - yes - quality of connection
10:20 jon_k : @stephen is that authority or responsibility?
10:20 LisaMLane : @jenny has there been some kind of failure of connection quality, or just RL distractions?
10:20 anitsirk : live session will be difficult in coming weeks as i often have to work during the elluminate sessions
10:20 ustreamer-98832 : I came to believe that if the course was shorter, with less content, ther would not have been massive drop out
10:20 jennymackness : @Lisa - I think quality
10:21 anitsirk : does ustream breaks up for you too?
10:21 coarsesalt : QUESTIONS?
10:21 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: my ustream is good
10:21 LisaMLane : @98832 yes, a lot was discussed in the first few weeks, all at once
10:21 ustreamer-98832 : In a form of short courses for example. The first week introductions reflect that people were really enthusiastic, but also busy
10:23 coarsesalt : that's stupid :)
10:23 jennymackness : It depends on how educators perceive themselves
10:23 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I have a sense that there is functionally helpful aurthority through the roles educator instructors can play -- but there is also restricting others through authority -- good debate here
10:25 LisaMLane : as educators, should our goal be serving the needs of the learner or the needs of society?
10:25 jon_k : stakeholders have a vested interest in the system
10:25 ustreamer-66891 : stakeholder analysis versus social benefit analysis... good stuff
10:25 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: good question Lisa
10:25 jennymackness : @Lisa - it has to be both
10:26 jennymackness : Oh dear its all the fault of the British :)
10:26 gsiemens : the development of land-grant universities alos launched that opportunitiy
10:26 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Complex Shapings in isolated and/or connected communities
10:26 gsiemens : dave said regularize
10:26 LisaMLane : how does open access affect our goals?
10:27 jon_k : perhaps the better word is regulate!
10:27 jennymackness : @Lisa - great question
10:27 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I think the teachers made it a "socializing" process
10:28 LisaMLane : but her unhappiness isn't systemic, it's personal
10:28 LisaMLane : based on the personality of her teacher
10:29 jon_k : it might be systemic? If that teacher has a wider effect than just the one class
10:29 gsiemens : I like stakeholders
10:29 gsiemens : personal agency
10:29 ustreamer-8925 : ctscho: @lisa once you start asking about the teacher, you start questioning the whole system
10:29 gsiemens : we don't realize that our voice counts
10:30 LisaMLane : @ctscho I get that, but think personality is significant
10:30 gsiemens : organizations and structures permit individuals to silence their voice
10:30 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: sorry to throw this in -- but where does money come into this picture -- with what gets supported "as okay"
10:31 gsiemens : it may just be human nature, Stephen
10:31 LisaMLane : we have to have schools as a deterrent to independent learning ...
10:32 jennymackness : @Lisa Schools can promote independent learning
10:32 LisaMLane : @jenny indeed they can! do they do it to help the learner or the society?
10:33 jennymackness : Both
10:33 LisaMLane : what happens when those goals are in opposition?
10:33 jennymackness : such as?
10:33 LisaMLane : our local school banned kids from wearing costumes today
10:34 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: is independent learning percieved as potentially dangerous -- or less effective for society -- and like Lisa says -- schoold can promot independent learning -- but I would add that I experience some given parameters to the independent -- more interdependent learning.
10:34 jennymackness : @ Lisa in the interests of society?
10:35 LisaMLane : @jenny when these social objectives promote conformity rather than independence
10:35 LisaMLane : I do not know what the school was trying to prevent
10:35 LisaMLane : but I applauded the jr high kids who came to school today in bedroom slippers
10:35 wdrexler : empowerment
10:35 LisaMLane : defiance, but not really a "costume"
10:35 jennymackness : Even children can exercise choice
10:36 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Marks may be high if the instructor agrees, and not otherwise (perhaps -- although one hopes not).
10:36 LisaMLane : wow, now I wonder how I grew up without having that expectation -- I've never been a passive learner
10:37 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: How did you get that way Lisa?
10:37 wdrexler : @Lisa You've never walked into a mandatory PD session with a passive frame of mind? Boy, I have.
10:37 LisaMLane : @wendy I either make it work for me or tune out and do something else
10:37 coarsesalt : I'm a mandatory session leads worse nightmare
10:38 LisaMLane : @Jo Ann parental support for independence maybe
10:38 wdrexler : Isn't tuning out and doing something else passive aggressive? HA!
10:38 LisaMLane : @wendy yup!
10:38 wdrexler : :)
10:38 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I think when I'm doing the thinking that I'm doing because people -- like significant others have helped shape me
10:39 wdrexler : Even if they don't actually take away personal control, they certainly don't encourage it.
10:39 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Thanks Lisa -- parents do influence a lot -- especially when I consider my day to day work as a psychologist
10:39 LisaMLane : the penalties for asserting such power include public humiliation, used at schools here
10:40 jennymackness : LOL
10:40 LisaMLane : c'mon Stephen, you wanted us to yell and we did -- didn't want to disappoint you! :)
10:41 LisaMLane : my parents modeled it for me
10:41 jennymackness : Yes - as Stepehen has said - model and demonstrate
10:41 wdrexler : I hate when my day job gets in the way of my learning. :) Gotta go teach. Great discussion! Happy Halloween and enjoy your weekend.
10:41 LisaMLane : @jenny exactly
10:41 coarsesalt : @Lisa my parents are even more pigheaded than i am
10:42 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Skill sets can be learned -- but who teaches them. On my first online course I had a huge learning curve. Perhaps some had huge learning curves -- and that takes time and skill sets.
10:43 jennymackness : Easier to do when not for credit!
10:43 LisaMLane : the point is here is a resource, so use it, duh
10:43 jon_k : @Jo-Ann - I think people teach themselves those skills
10:43 LisaMLane : @Jo Ann, so following modeling, you should be a student in one first, yes?
10:44 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I would have loved to have know how to build up more gradually -- but for many things like this -- I just dive in -- with my skill of asking questions and finding resource people.
10:44 LisaMLane : so you lose a few...
10:45 ustreamer-91238 : JoAnn: The laws of survival -- 1) stop myself from panicking and breath -- I'm still alive
10:45 ustreamer-8925 : @lisa But if it;s something like learning, it's not a finite chance- you can try again
10:46 LisaMLane : that's why I want to get into why so many people have left the course 10:46 LisaMLane : that's why I want to get into why so many people have left the course
10:46 jennymackness : Must be something to do with what you say
10:46 jennymackness : @Lisa - all online courses in my experience lose people
10:47 anitsirk : all courses - also f2f lose people
10:47 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: personal agency -- is worth learning - was it a subtext?
10:47 LisaMLane : but this one is voluntary, many were so excited
10:47 LisaMLane : don't you need authority to have the opportunity to model?
10:47 ustreamer-8925 : Traditional education says sstart here, stop now. Anyone can go back to this and revisit it-- they're not nec. "lost" to themselves-- just to this particular temporal element
10:48 ustreamer-87687 : Thinking about course content, e.g., biological taxonomy vs. knowledge management
10:48 anitsirk : @lisa but then real life caught up. the 1st two weeks were before the semester started for me -> had a bit more time
10:48 SasaSi : i don't think people have left... i think they just switched to lurking... (I have)
10:48 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I lurk in 1/2 this course
10:49 jon_k : the only way to know why people leave/stop is to have an exit survey of some sort
10:49 coarsesalt : wow.
10:50 LisaMLane : it would be so nice to talk more about cognitive connectivism
10:50 anitsirk : i have heard that some people stopped following moodle due to the tone in some discussions. i think seeing what's going on on the blogs in terms of comments is difficult because they are not aggregated like the posts in the daily
10:50 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Pattern of connectiveness -- not just in the brain -- but in the whole body (movement therapist here)
10:50 jon_k : I personally think lurking = leaving as you're not contributing to the discussion
10:50 LisaMLane : @jon_k I don't, but I think many have left completely
10:51 LisaMLane : and I think that some did because they didn't want the control
10:51 anitsirk : maybe some who had signed up have never actually started
10:51 SasaSi : I don't think lurking is the same as leaving
10:51 jon_k : the course was set up to be not only learning from Stephen/George, but from each other
10:51 LisaMLane : @SasaSi me neither, lurking is valid
10:52 LisaMLane : this connects: what do we do when learners won't take control?
10:52 jennymackness : How would avoiding authority work in the army?
10:52 jon_k : @jenny it won't
10:52 LisaMLane : @jenny the goal there is conformity
10:52 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I find that thie information of this course is a challenge to interface with some of my colleagues -- the very problem that we are dancing in today
10:52 jennymackness : So in some cases we need authority and control?
10:53 jon_k : only if we need an army
10:53 anitsirk : i agree w/ lisa and sasasi. with lurking i'm still involved even though others can't see it. when i leave i don't do anything at all.
10:53 LisaMLane : Hobbes
10:53 jennymackness : @jon - good one!
10:53 ustreamer-8925 : Conceptual connections aren't the same as social connections-- not as visible. Can;t judge learning only through language, I think
10:54 LisaMLane : @8925 but to leave it out seems to create an incomplete perspective
10:54 jon_k : I think that one of the underlying notions of connectivism is that it is contributing to society
10:55 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Powerlessnes or a weakening of "the process" by consensus
10:55 LisaMLane : so what do we do with the nature of man vis a vis power?
10:55 LisaMLane : if not contract theory, then what?
10:55 jon_k : lurking takes from one group (our group) and may or may not give to other groups
10:56 LisaMLane : @jon_k it isn't taking if it's freely given
10:56 jon_k : @lisa - true the language I used isn't correct
10:57 jon_k : but I'm balancing work and something interesting...
10:57 LisaMLane : LOL
10:57 LisaMLane : the desire for conformity has not changed
10:58 LisaMLane : an appropriate day to resurrect the dead ;)
10:58 ustreamer-91238 : JoAnn: If people give me tools, resources, and people -- can I be responsible for my interaction with other
10:59 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Some people who like being "teachers" have the illusion of power
10:59 jennymackness : How do power and leadership relate?
10:59 LisaMLane : @jenny an important question
11:00 ustreamer-8925 : ctscho: Good discussion of networked leadership in the week's reading
11:00 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: There is room for "differnt" ways
11:00 gsiemens : thanks all for stopping by
11:01 gsiemens : thanks Dave and Jeff
11:01 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: yes indeed -- thanks everyone
11:01 LisaMLane : thanks George for being up so late!
11:01 ustreamer-8925 : Thank you.
11:01 jon_k : thanks!
11:01 ustreamer-70884 : thanks
11:01 SasaSi : thanks!
11:01 anitsirk : thank you very much, dave, george, jeff and stephen
11:01 LisaMLane : thanks everyone
11:01 jpachon : thanks
11:01 jpachon : bye all