A community discussion stemming from the ETT Governance backchannel
How do we feel about ETT shows to using Elluminate? (plus some earnest Mac Chat)
- Length: 37:37 minutes (17.22 MB)
- Format: MP3 Mono 44kHz 64Kbps (CBR)
EdTechTalk Community Discussion
March 8, 2009
from the ETT Governance backchannel
How do we feel about ETT shows using Elluminate?
(plus some earnest Mac Chat)
Chat Log Below 
19:41:06 matt montagne -> @JS...nope, our plans, if we use XP, are to only use the OS...OO 3.0 and most everything else would b open source...the goal is to get the software cost down to near zero
19:41:30 JS -> Then why not dump XP and go all OS?
19:41:53 sharonp -> @matt I love your vision!
19:42:08 matt montagne -> @js...because XP only saves about $25-$50...BUT, we're still going to try to go Linux
19:42:19 matt montagne -> @sharonP...my goal is to sell these things in our school store
19:42:33 matt montagne -> no reason not to...they are cheaper than annual text book fees now
19:42:50 sharonp -> Offering choices is good, if we can make the options clear without bungling up someone's download due to bandwidth issues
19:42:51 JS -> I think it's a good opportunity -- since it's such a different device -- to get Linux into the hands of real people in a worthwhile way.
19:43:03 littlejohnny -> I think limiting it to one format is why television is going to die ... just because it starts with podcasts, doesn't mean it has to die with podcasts.
19:43:21 sharonp -> @matt good thinking (with markup that benefits needy students!)
19:43:24 littlejohnny -> it depends on who is hosting
19:43:37 littlejohnny -> if you use Elluminate Publisher, you can move things out to other formats
19:43:38 Alvin Trusty -> We use Elluminate and I've been asking this question for several years... still no answer
19:43:50 littlejohnny -> however that costs more
19:43:58 matt montagne -> @JS...that is one of our motivational forces...Linux and community based software constuction is and will be a big part of the future...exposing kids to this world now has merit IMHO
19:44:08 sharonp -> not a question of content.... question of accessibility
19:44:21 littlejohnny -> you can peel out the .vcr files form the elluminate links, flash playable.
19:44:23 matt montagne -> @sharonP...I agree...accessibility...
19:44:40 sharonp -> we CANNOT lose sight of the fact that so many places in the world CANNOT access large file sizes... not their choice.. reality
19:45:13 JS -> I think you're right Dave. Most people who listen to us do so on portable devices.
19:45:14 sharonp -> accessibility and portability
19:45:30 robdarrow -> Elluminate seems like it is only good if there are a bunch of visuals...
19:45:43 sharonp -> portability is a North American issue
19:45:48 matt montagne -> @sharon...if we can become a textbook free school (not a book free school) then I think we can almost hand these things out to students for free...
19:46:14 sharonp -> @matt.. I think you are a leader in your thinking
19:46:44 courosa -> elluminate is marketing it within education in large free events so that decision makers are exposed to the tool
19:46:50 sharonp -> We need schools like yours to point to so we can say to our admins - "See! Someone else is doing it... successfully!"
19:47:17 JS -> @Matt http://staff.bbhcsd.org/schinkerj/archives/2008/01/24/textbook-economics/ 
19:47:20 matt montagne -> @sharon...thanks for your feedback, it probably is way too far flung, but i think it can be done...
19:47:33 sharonp -> @courosa That has been my question... What is the business model (with elluminate in particular)?
19:47:36 courosa -> @dave: not always a 'contract', I'd be cautious with that
19:47:58 sharonp -> No such thing as a free lunch
19:48:27 sharonp -> I want to be very careful with this elluminate thing??
19:48:39 matt montagne -> @JS...one of my students is a junior has been using a kindle this year...she said she is near the break even point on her books right now (she uses it for her english novels and 1 textbook)
19:48:49 Alvin Trusty -> for a class of 20, Elluminate costs $13,000 for one year
19:48:51 courosa -> @sharonp exactly that, 'free' to large events to create greater exposure, but VERY expensive to universities and K12
19:49:01 krea_frobro747 -> VERY BIG JUMP...
19:49:21 krea_frobro747 -> ultimately, you can use illuminate... and even endorse a competitor... no big deal...
19:49:45 krea_frobro747 -> which product best fits your goal?
19:49:53 sharonp -> it is a cost benefit analysis thing - does Elluminate bring value for $$ in terms of learning benefits?
19:49:58 courosa -> @dave: that is why we (bloggers, tweeters, podcasters) needs to be transparent about their relationship with the product.
19:50:16 matt montagne -> @JS...EXCLENT post...I'm going to use that in our discussion wednesday on moving toward becoming a textbook free school....
19:50:39 matt montagne -> eluminate is crazy EXPENSIVE...WOW, 13K???
19:50:58 sharonp -> @matt I agree.... this is why I raise my objections
19:51:06 robdarrow -> Whether it costs $10,000 or $100, the principle of support still applies.
19:51:10 Ron h -> @sharonp - great point. Is the $$ worth it with the other alternatives out there to enable learning
19:51:12 courosa -> we are told not to discuss what it costs when you sign with elluminate, but seeing as I could be anyone, it costs about $17G for us, 30 users.
19:51:23 sharonp -> AND, there are alternatives to elluminate..... that are lower in bandwidth and FREE!!
19:51:50 krea_frobro747 -> I think that you are assuming that participators assume they have to use the same tool that you do.....
19:51:59 matt montagne -> kyle stevens was doing some cool review sessions with his students via dimdim
19:52:15 courosa -> @sharonp alternatives, with not all the features and stability ... and I've tried them all. Hopefully better options soon.
19:52:18 JL -> skype 'jefflebow' to join in
19:52:23 matt montagne -> kudos to kyle for employing free syncronous learning environs to connect with his students
19:52:53 courosa -> elluminates does not export out well, it's like putting a lot of stuff in Betamax.
19:53:03 Ron h -> How about Microsoft Comm Server for $2500 ish + you run the server on your districts bandwidth. That seems a bit more reasonable.
19:53:08 matt montagne -> I think that eluminate users should record the audio and save it as an mp3...this can b done
19:53:13 krea_frobro747 -> on the other hand, I came here today (first time) and thought... wow, wouldn't this be better if they were using illuminate....
19:53:15 robdarrow -> @JenM - I agree, would not like to give up the portability!
19:53:16 krea_frobro747 -> Elluminate
19:53:19 ujdmc -> I would never sign off on a purchase order for a product that costs $500 per user when there is a free equivalent... or even lesser expensive alternative
19:53:32 courosa -> @matt: easy if you use the Elluminate Publisher tool, or you can always just hijack the audio.
19:53:47 sharonp -> It is about knowing the affordances of a tool, of what your specific learning goals are and what your resources are to achieving those goals.... in these times of economic cutbacks, I think we ALL need to examine WHAT we use, what our learing goals are, share the alternatives and also examine learning sciences to what THEY say to these tools in terms of learning gains....
19:53:51 kchichester -> @JM I agree. I listen in my car on the way to work. I'd miss the podcast.
19:54:02 matt montagne -> @alec...ahh, good point..
19:54:27 JS -> @ujdmc lots of people would though. Either they don't know there's a less expensive alternative, or they think that it's better because it costs more.
19:54:30 courosa -> shady, but the norm with a lot of software dealers in education.
19:54:52 matt montagne -> it is sad, but I think school districts now with the bailout package might buy wimba and elunminate like products...they are going to have some money and they are going to need to spend it...
19:54:55 courosa -> non-disclosure agreements are common
19:55:07 ujdmc -> there is only one pot of money... a dollar spent in one place is a dollar foregone in another. Part of the value of tech is innovating and reducing cost while adding value
19:55:22 Ron h -> Another option - (free for education) Panopto - plus they are introducing a live classroom in a couple of months.
19:55:26 sharonp -> @matt and we need to be out there sharing best practices and offering alternatives
19:55:28 matt montagne -> also, let's face it, these tools just aren't going to b used that much...maybe by a teacher or two or three, but how can you justify that kinda cash???
19:55:30 courosa -> mp3, and other options.
19:55:49 matt montagne -> @sharonP...I totally, totally, totally agree...excellent point
19:55:50 robdarrow -> Right, the endorsement is what I was talking about...and I don't think all Elluminate people suggest to not to tell people what it costs
19:56:07 ujdmc -> and districts that just toss away money because they don't know better ultimately are doing a severe disservice to their students and communities
19:56:09 kchichester -> I don't think that schools would use the stimulus package money to by Elluminate, we'll use it to keep teachers employed.
19:56:10 sharonp -> aw c'mon more than just accessiblity!
19:56:22 courosa -> on the bright side of things: the free(er) tools are getting better.
19:56:24 gail -> What do they actually give you for the $$
19:56:26 Alvin Trusty -> @matt - the seats can be used by any teacher in the school. Two groups of ten, four groups of five, etc.
19:56:34 sharonp -> how do I skype in??
19:56:36 matt montagne -> @kch...u never know...some funds will b used for virtual learning opportunities
19:57:02 Alvin Trusty -> @gail - they integrate Elluminate into your LMS and archive all the classes.
19:57:17 matt montagne -> @alvin...I understand, but I don't think many teachers will use it...
19:57:17 gail -> What is LMS?
19:57:33 matt montagne -> Wimba is expensive as well
19:57:34 Ron h -> LMS is a 'learning management system'
19:57:39 courosa -> breeze is more expensive? it wasn't for us.
19:57:41 matt montagne -> Adobe acrobat connect is another pricey one
19:57:57 robdarrow -> Anyone used DimDim?
19:57:57 gail -> give me a IWB first please!
19:58:03 ujdmc -> isn't there value in having to work a bit to come up with the free alternative to elluminate or any other tool?
19:58:06 Alvin Trusty -> @matt - you have to have an online class to make it worth it
19:58:24 courosa -> i can come in for a few minutes ... skype?
19:58:37 ujdmc -> doesn't the user learn more about tech and about innovating by having to work a bit to create a solution?
19:59:01 matt montagne -> @alvin...agreed...but, I do think these kinds of tools could be great for virtual extenisions of traditional classrooms...
19:59:17 ujdmc -> anything Adobe is pricey and their support is atrocious
20:00:03 ujdmc -> I see Adobe as a company on the decline... even with the industry standard Photoshop
20:00:14 courosa -> not Saskatchewan ... yet. :-)
20:00:15 ujdmc -> not a recession any more... its now a depression
20:00:35 matt montagne -> bingo, sharon...
20:00:36 courosa -> @ujdmc ... sad
20:00:39 matt montagne -> u r right on
20:00:43 matt montagne -> that is my concern too
20:01:07 ujdmc -> the united states has lost about 50% of its private equity in the last year
20:01:12 matt montagne -> sometimes people think that u need to spend big money for software if it is any good...
20:01:30 matt montagne -> the fact of the matter is that we can do eluminate types of things for low/no cost...
20:01:53 ujdmc -> grrrrrr. white boards
20:02:12 matt montagne -> it is bogus, too, when these companies talk about their integration with Learning Management Systems...all the "integration" means is that there is a link in moodle or blackboard or whatever
20:02:51 gail -> @courosa love the beaver on the border clip
20:02:59 matt montagne -> wimba still talks about how thier tool integrates with moodle...again, "integration" essentially means there is a link...
20:03:05 robdarrow -> Steve Hargadon with the Classroom 2.0 group has been effective with Elluminate - http://wiki.classroom20.com/LIVE+Conversations 
20:03:24 sharonp -> @rob define "effective"?
20:03:24 sroseman -> great for presonal PD
20:04:22 robdarrow -> @sharonp - He has used the voting/polling parts of Elluminate, people putting where they are in the world, etc beyond just people asking questions.
20:05:36 sharonp -> And I want to be clear on this.... I like Steve .. I like Classroom 2.0... what you are describing as effective is instructor driven.... but in terms of accessibility and what business model they are using
20:07:15 sharonp -> @rob and I want to ask.... what has he done with elluminate that could not have been doen with FlashMeeting? Am familiar with both and can't see that elluminate is that much superior for the difference in cost
20:07:24 robdarrow -> @sharonp - I guess I meant "effective" because it was more than just lecture and present. I would agree that I have not seen anyone do participant-to-participant involvement.
20:08:14 robdarrow -> @sharonp - I'm not familiar with Flash meeting, but I'll check it out
20:08:15 sharonp -> And I do want to say that I am just delighted that we do have options!
20:08:21 ujdmc -> funny we just had this big discussion about "endorsing" eluminate and now we are talking about Macs
20:08:24 ujdmc -> and OS10
20:08:41 matt montagne -> there was an article out there that my colleague was talking about with me the other day...it essentially said that while the guts of OSes are different, essentially they are all the same as far as user experience goes
20:09:13 ujdmc -> not only are they over pricing themselves but they also do not work to help with enterprise use
20:09:13 matt montagne -> I totally agree that OSes are pretty much the same...I could care less about OS. I am OS nuetral I guess!!
20:09:15 JenM -> @ujdmc ... tee hee
20:09:26 Gary -> Net-book alternative: iPhone?
20:09:31 sroseman -> a larger ipodtouch is to be released in the fall
20:09:37 sroseman -> larger screen
20:09:50 matt montagne -> apple is the only compnay in silicon valley that is making a profit right now (not totally true, but u get my drift)...
20:10:05 matt montagne -> they need to kill mobile me right now...pretty bad product
20:10:09 krea_frobro747 -> the last I heard on Mac/netbooks was several months back when Jobs said that they wouldn't jump into the netbook market until they knew it would be sustained...
20:10:16 ujdmc -> lots of tech comapnies making good money
20:10:23 sharonp -> @matt due to their macbook sales, I think not? iPhone.... maybe?
20:10:33 krea_frobro747 -> I would love to replace my eeePC with a Mac netbook... but can only imagine what it would cost...
20:10:55 matt montagne -> the netbook growth is a classic example of disruptive innovation...it took a small, unkonwd PC company and a non-for profit to build the netbook market
20:10:56 JenM -> http://www.liliputing.com/2009/03/asus-launches-eee-pc-1008ha-ultra-thin... 
20:11:05 Gary -> Apple has always taken the view that they sell to those who want what they offer and are willing to pay.
20:11:17 ujdmc -> very pompous marketing
20:11:41 ujdmc -> i totally disagree that apple is a higher level tool
20:11:44 coolpoolteacher -> welcome Neil!!
20:11:47 coolpoolteacher -> :)
20:11:59 ujdmc -> YES... they market themselves as cool
20:12:06 Gary -> The high-end user may be the only ones that can afford to buy the high-end computer
20:12:25 matt montagne -> I'm big, big mac fan, but there are some OS things that I dislike...minimizing/maximizing windows for one...
20:12:38 Gary -> and Apple has enough money on hand to get through the next couple of years.
20:12:58 ujdmc -> I am a higher end user and although I love my wifes imac... I am a PC user... with 4 screens and I program, develop, share....
20:13:01 matt montagne -> @Gary...apple's last quarter sales were still fantastic tho...
20:13:03 sroseman -> Laptops surpassed desktops in the US 3 years ago.
20:13:24 Gary -> I know - and use a Mac
20:13:29 sroseman -> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/12/30/large-form-ipod-touch-to-launch-in-... 
20:14:01 matt montagne -> their marketing is stunning...they lead you to think that they don't "crash." They do crash!!!
20:14:05 ujdmc -> They MUST learn to live within the enterprise better to bust through that ceiling
20:14:21 Neil Stephenson -> yeah.. mine crashes.. about once a year
20:14:33 ujdmc -> ask General Motors how long that cash lasts when you get pompous and believe you don't have to change
20:14:34 coolpoolteacher -> beach ball of death...
20:15:04 matt montagne -> @neil...u r lucky...I work with them all day long and they crash as much as the windows computers I used to work with...
20:15:09 coolpoolteacher -> my mac pro crashes each time I try to use ustream...
20:15:12 matt montagne -> again, I'm an OS neutral dude...
20:15:26 Neil Stephenson -> ive given so many presentations to teachers who can't produce the same types of llearning environments because the PC platfrom is so much harder for multimedia products
20:15:28 coolpoolteacher -> but I sill love them
20:15:42 ujdmc -> Yeah, you guys really are a bit short sighted on network management
20:16:03 matt montagne -> @neil...great things can b done right thru the web...so who cares what computer u have??
20:16:16 sharonp -> I think Jeff was gettng glassy-eyed in our discusson of mac and apple products
20:16:16 ujdmc -> but I REALLY do love my wifes iMac
20:16:17 matt montagne -> nite y'all
20:16:21 matt montagne -> that was fun!!!
20:16:25 matt montagne -> good stuff
20:16:38 sarah h -> Thanks, I enjoyed it!
20:16:43 sroseman -> I agree with matt .. everythin I do is web based
20:16:47 coolpoolteacher -> l8er!
20:16:54 matt montagne -> JS just shows up and hits home run!!!
20:16:58 Neil Stephenson -> @matt... i agreee. there's some great webtools.. but you can't get the same level of product with online tools
20:17:00 Gary -> Thanks agai.
20:17:05 Gary -> n
20:17:06 matt montagne -> then just does casual stroll around the bases!!!
20:17:07 sarah h -> @matt--thx for the pic today re-compost
20:17:15 ujdmc -> you can now get your OS via a web page that looks like your desktop
20:17:28 matt montagne -> @sarah...thanks, u helped me think of my picture of the day!!!
20:17:41 sarah h -> I'll tweet you a ?
20:17:43 matt montagne -> @uj...exactly!!!
20:17:45 ernie easter -> Thanks for a great talk for an advid Mac user
20:19:30 sroseman -> @ ujdmac ..can you ellucidate on that point ...you can now get your OS via a web page that looks like your desktop