DougSymington >>> Hi Stephen
Stephen_Downes >>> Hiya folks
DougSymington >>> Skype hijacking settings is a pain
barbara-in-ohio >>> "yes, the mike audio does creep up in skype on a mac"
barbara-in-ohio >>> "takes over, actually"
barbara-in-ohio >>> yes!
DougSymington >>> Sounds fine on stream re George's audio
barbara-in-ohio >>> the audio is fine
barbara-in-ohio >>> it does not effect the audio at this end
barbara-in-ohio >>> thank god for the post show edit
barbara-in-ohio >>> hi george!
George_Siemens >>> Hi Barbara
barbara-in-ohio >>> honest from the listeners end you all sound lovely
Moira >>> Good evening
JohnMartin >>> yeah the sound is not bad out here
George_Siemens >>> i like mental giants
barbara-in-ohio >>> "I love how we still refer to this as rolling tape"""""
Bee >>> "Good afternoon (16:05 in Sao Paulo, Brazil)"
Stephen_Downes >>> yeah
George_Siemens >>> hi Bee
barbara-in-ohio >>> boa tarde Bee
Bee >>> Boa tarde
barbara-in-ohio >>> tudo bem
barbara-in-ohio >>> ?
analiad >>> buenas tardes (Argentian)
Bee >>> Perfeito
barbara-in-ohio >>> dave's audio is low
Bee >>> yes...a bit too distant
Bee >>> sounds goo
Bee >>> good
dave-on-air >>> http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=33034 
barbara-in-ohio >>> George: your volume is not an issue from this end
dave-on-air >>> http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/archives/2005_12.html 
barbara-in-ohio >>> Muy buenas tardes analiad
dave-on-air >>> nice light fare for a sunday afternoon :)
dave-on-air >>> i love this stuff
dave-on-air >>> hi david
barbara-in-ohio >>> spiritual? oh dear
dave-on-air >>> some of us have spirits...
dave-on-air >>> it's important to address all sides i think
David_Noble >>> "Hi, David from Falkirk, Scotland. I'm just catching up on today's topic (missed the first 10 mins)"
Bee >>> spirits? drinking some here now...pousse café...Poire Williams
Bee >>> lol
JohnMartin >>> C2H5OH
barbara-in-ohio >>> "bem feito, bee...cachaa?"
dave-on-air >>> downes/siemens subject/objective connective knowledge
David_Noble >>> cheers Dave
George_Siemens >>> :)
George_Siemens >>> "I can relate to that - write it, release it - the anti-hamlet factor"
sue >>> "we living in a world of good enough"" I'm not sure it's that great all the time"""
bon >>> "but...what we call what it is"" has to be agreed on, the apple may be red when it's in a dark room, but we'd have to agree on what red is"""
bon >>> some cultures only identify four colours
Bee >>> some people confuse red and green
bon >>> true enough
George_Siemens >>> good questions - i would like to tackle that audibly with stephen
Bee >>> is there a universal?
bon >>> "yeh...even in terms of colour theory, the objective"" colour may not be the same...interesting when we get to universal theories of learning"""
Bee >>> the universal is dictated by a local
dave-on-air >>> it assumes a mainstream position which leads to other difficulties...
dave-on-air >>> "when we assume one truth, we bring in a binary"
barbara-in-ohio >>> "I'm wondering how, as a teacher listening to this and thinking about my syllabus for next semester, how one grounds all of this in actual pedagogical practice..."
bon >>> "yeh, the way i teach it is usually that we use cultural conventions to agree upon certain things, and those cultural conventions are contextual"
sue >>> "I thought learning objects died since we could not be objective about them - we were too subjective about them? (okay, now I'm getting confused!! ;)"
bon >>> "so there's NOT complete relativity, i can't say my banana is red and have people who share my cultural conventions agree"
DougSymington >>> "and the cultural conventions"" are the key learning is a social experience"""
bon >>> yep
Bee >>> Hola Graham
bon >>> and i think it's useful in education to look at the assumptions behind our cultural conventions
bon >>> in terms of learning
Bee >>> you need to deconstruct your assumptions
DougSymington >>> "true, but easier said that done. How do I know what I don't know?"
Bee >>> "try to understand where they come from, where they originate from"
Bee >>> we never know :-)
Bee >>> underlying essence that encompasses everything else...
Bee >>> spinoza
DougSymington >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoza 
GrahamStanley >>> Hi Bee
Bee >>> Oi Tere
bon >>> how do we eliminate our perceptions?
Bee >>> we do not I guess
bon >>> "i would agree, i'm not sure who it is that's speaking"
sue >>> I don't think we need to - but I think we have to be aware of them
DougSymington >>> we can't separate selves from perceptions
bon >>> "i'm in agreement, just trying to follow what's being said"
Bee >>> and that we see the world through our own lenses and perspectives
dave-on-air >>> stephen is talking now
bon >>> "can the speakers kindly say their names beforehand, maybe?"
bon >>> who just spoke on eliminating perceptions?
George_Siemens >>> ok
bon >>> thanks guys
Bee >>> sometimes we are not even aware of our own perspectives...imagine other ones
Stephen_Downes >>> right Bee
DougSymington >>> but the perceptions we all have are culturally determined
DougSymington >>> "objective"" is culturally determined"""
bon >>> i agree Doug
Bee >>> what we see and believe in is never ever neutral
dave-on-air >>> tri-angle is a definition
Bee >>> lol
bon >>> "so george, you're talking about establishing a semantic"
bon >>> but i'm not sure how that's objective
Bee >>> is it white?
Bee >>> or cream or white?
Bee >>> I've never seen a black unicorn
dave-on-air >>> i have
Bee >>> where?
dave-on-air >>> photoshop
Stephen_Downes >>> "but there could be a black unicorn, couldn't there?"
Bee >>> as long as we agree there is one
bon >>> "george, i agree we build on representations and create with them - but why insist on applying the term objective"" to that representation?"""
Bee >>> what is a leg?
JeffLebow >>> "If anyone would like to step into the ring with Plato and Aristotle, let us know and we can skype you in"
bon >>> lol
bon >>> "you first, jeff"
bon >>> i demur
JeffLebow >>> I'm not getting fed to the lions...I'd be an easy snack
dave-on-air >>> i have a question for stephen and george... relating this to education whenever you're ready
Bee >>> filtering allows you to go beyond your perception?
Bee >>> maths for instance...or physics...absolutely...I'd paralyze
sue >>> Thank you George!!
bon >>> "so what aspects of education aren't subjective, then, George?"
bon >>> "George, what are your basic assumptions about education here? in a classroom, if a kid comes with different strengths than the ones traditionally rewarded by the way we assess, does that mean that we objectively"" don't have use for them in the class? your perspective seems to run the line of assigning deficit where i'm not sure it always exists"""
dave-on-air >>> Stephen you're next...
dave-on-air >>> yay great question george
Bee >>> the answer to this one is worth a million dollars...
Bee >>> the purpose of education would be to help the learners to excel?
sue >>> But for what world?
dave-on-air >>> excel at what?
Bee >>> exactly
Bee >>> excel in what they are interested in
dave-on-air >>> and if they're interested in whiskey?
Bee >>> that if they are interested in sthg
dave-on-air >>> as i was at 15.
sue >>> "I think there are pure skills such as creativity, critical thinking, the ability to read, as a place to start. Forget the facts!"
Bee >>> because creativity and critical thinking are what we need in our society
sue >>> what skills make great societies?
Bee >>> but is it needed in other societies?
Bee >>> maybe in other societies there is too much creativity and they need sthg else
sue >>> a balance - yes
Bee >>> how do we find the needs of the learner?
bon >>> "and if we judge them objectively"" in terms of capacity from the time they enter the class, and their home environment hasn't encouraged critical thinking or creativity, then they may get labelled as having a deficit because of the lens we're seeing them through"""
Bee >>> how do we help learners discover their needs?
bon >>> when they may simply have different skills
sue >>> can we agree that reflection is one of the important skills to teach
Bee >>> how do we teach reflection?
sue >>> we do reflection
sue >>> "yes critical and creative thinking is subjective too, eh?"
Bee >>> I would think so ...yes
Bee >>> I always assess randomly...just throw the papers and the one that falls nearer gets a higher mark (just kidding)
GrahamStanley >>> :)
sue >>> I'm in teacher's college right now (long story) but there's much too much WHAT... and definitely not enough how or WHY... it hurts me so!
Bee >>> not many...people get anguished when they have choices
Bee >>> l'embaras du choix
GrahamStanley >>> "sue, I think this is the problem with so much training"
sue >>> "I got booted out at a key point earlier - I wanted to make this point...I agree with George's point about opting for TV - I would say about 50% of students would prefer the lecture method for that exact reason as well....painless, 'don't make me get involved' learning... but then, is it learning?"
Bee >>> thinking hurts...makes the brain cells move :)
dave-on-air >>> lol
GrahamStanley >>> I didn't learn much of value from attending lectures when I was at university. I think the valuable knowledge came from my reading in the library and discussions with other students
sue >>> true Graham... but looking around aren't there a group of students who just don't want to have their brains exercised and prefer to do the chair moving on the titanic as mentioned by George and Stephen?
DougSymington >>> "Stephen and George, thanks for a wonderful show--tons to think about"
GrahamStanley >>> I agree Sue
sue >>> "Oh man, Thank you GENTLEMEN!!! It's been a joy listening in!! The TITAN's have battled and there is no winner to declare!! As it should be (well at least in my subjective opinion!!!)"
Bee >>> Thanks for the ideas put forward
Bee >>> Sue...we also need people to move chairs
teresadeca >>> thanks for a very interesting discussion!
Stephen_Downes >>> afk...
GrahamStanley >>> I for one look forward to listening again to this when it's available as a podcast
Moira >>> Thanks so much
sue >>> definitely... and so as teacher should we be all engaging?
sue >>> "or has our education system just made them think"" that they'd be only good as chair pushers?"""
Bee >>> it's up to them to decide what they want...
GrahamStanley >>> but we can help them help themselves
Bee >>> we open doors...if they close them...it's their decision
DougSymington >>> "Graham, that's another key re help selves"""""
Stephen_Downes >>> back
sue >>> I believe the students are the ones who open the doors - teacher's have to make it interesting enough to open the door... but I guess that's semantics.
Bee >>> yes...we all try to keep them open
sue >>> gotto go all... it's been great chatting!
Bee >>> Ciao...and thanks a lot for all
GrahamStanley >>> thanks everyone
DougSymington >>> "thanks all, great time here today"
George_Siemens >>> thanks for listening in