Conversations Episode 98 - School Rules
This week, Lisa, Sheila, and Maria talked about school rules - what are they, why are they, what should they be. We started the show with some exciting news about our friend, Amanda Marrinan. John Fladd also shared some great news with us.
Chat:
11:13:37 Lisa Parisi : Welcome.
11:13:41 Lisa Parisi : You are in the right place.
11:13:43 sheila : Can you hear the music?
11:13:54 slmteach : yes I can hear the music
11:14:03 Lisa Parisi : Once we get started, we will be heard on ustream. the music will go off
11:14:16 slmteach : ok thanks
11:19:18 Sheila 2 : font de music is the tool that's being used in the screen.
11:19:34 rpotterfield : Hi, I am not hearing the music. I was trying EdTechTalk A on iTunes. Should I try one of the others in particular?
11:19:45 Lisa Parisi : We will be on ustream today.
11:20:07 Sheila 2 : Maria may be using ETTA
11:20:17 rpotterfield : Got it. Thanks.
11:29:09 rpotterfield : Will we need the video? Is there a way to see larger video & chat at the same time?
11:29:45 Lisa Parisi : This is an audio show. You can now hear us on ETTA or ustream.
11:30:57 PeggyG : audio is coming through great on ustream :-)
11:31:33 PeggyG : yes!!!!!! Amanda is a winner!!! :-)
11:32:04 woodenmask : Good morning
11:32:08 Sheila 2 : Morning!
11:32:10 PeggyG : Kay Bitter Award for Teacher of the Year for ISTE!!!
11:32:22 PeggyG : I saw her tweet :-)
11:33:02 PeggyG : we need to plan a little celebration/party with her at ISTE11 :-)
11:33:08 woodenmask : Mazeltov Amanda
11:33:26 PeggyG : That's one we want to shout from the rooftops :-)
11:33:37 Sheila 2 : Welcome all!
11:33:51 slmteach : Hello
11:33:55 Sheila 2 : Can you all hear? On ustream or ETTA?
11:34:14 slmteach : Yes, ustream is working for me!
11:34:27 PeggyG : Amanda is so deserving and such an outstanding teacher to recognize!
11:34:29 Sheila 2 : Great! Thanks!
11:35:14 woodenmask : UStream is working - StreamA, not so much
11:35:28 PeggyG : great to see all of you!!
11:35:32 Sheila 2 : Ok, thanks John!
11:35:53 MariaK : good morning to all - sorry we go side tracked by an award winner announcement
11:36:21 PeggyG : classroom discipline and school rules... interesting topic for today :-)
11:36:23 woodenmask : Can I share a couple of quick Award-y pieces of news, quickly?
11:36:40 PeggyG : yes John!!
11:36:48 woodenmask : Just heard that I got the NEH grant to study Duke Ellington in Harlem this summer
11:36:59 PeggyG : woo hoo!!!! how very exciting!!!!
11:37:04 Lisa Parisi : Wow!
11:37:06 woodenmask : Also, Ben Vereen Twittered my class last week
11:37:11 PeggyG : congratulations!
11:37:27 woodenmask : They are huge Roots fans
11:37:33 PeggyG : you need to get on the skype call and tell us the details of both!!
11:37:45 woodenmask : Okay - let me get to a quiet room
11:38:07 PeggyG : yes please do!!!!
11:38:25 PeggyG : that must have been so exciting for your students :-)
11:40:21 PeggyG : I agree Maria--Gary Stager is very "quotable" and definitely can get people fired up in very engaging conversations
11:40:34 PeggyG : that's so funny!
11:41:40 PeggyG : be respectful definitely covers "don't be a jerk" :-)
11:41:43 Maureen : I had a student's cell phone ring the other day- it was his mother...I didn't bother telling him how inappropriate it was.
11:41:45 Sheila 2 : Woodenmask's blog - http://teachertoys.weebly.com/index.html
11:42:24 PeggyG : thanks for that link Sheila
11:43:23 pamela livingston : Adults hate these kind of rules imagine having so many during a workshop - I think it all needs to be done in a very kind way
11:43:44 Maureen : I was listening to something the other day- an EC educator talking about not using "time out" anymore- but the reality was she was just changing the name to "thinking time".
11:44:24 PeggyG : very interesting Maureen--that's something we educators do frequently--call things by different names but still the same thing
11:44:27 pamela livingston : Liking that. With adults I introduce an exercise and then say we'll do this and it will also give us time to silence our cells
11:45:03 pamela livingston : Sorry who is speaking didn't do my homework
11:45:13 Maureen : That sounds great. A friend of mine did some work about Harlem Renaissance- took them to Harlem for the day at the end. Lots of music, lots of art- lots of poetry.
11:45:15 Lisa Parisi : Woodenmask
11:45:19 Lisa Parisi : John Fladd
11:45:25 pamela livingston : thanks
11:45:28 Lisa Parisi : He got an award and is talking about it
11:45:53 Sheila 2 : His blog is http://teachertoys.weebly.com/index.html
11:46:06 PeggyG : what an exciting summer!!
11:46:25 PeggyG : take pictures to tell the story John :-)
11:46:41 PeggyG : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Vereen
11:47:24 PeggyG : I'm so glad you're telling this story John!!
11:48:49 Sheila 2 : He teaches in Deerfield, NH.
11:48:51 pamela livingston : Great story how wonderful he said he loves them back. We are missing real love back to our students in many cases
11:48:59 PeggyG : that's so interesting!
11:49:20 pamela livingston : The antidote to bored students - love, engagement, making something important
11:49:34 PeggyG : we never know what a minute or two of our time can mean to a child (or anyone for that matter)
11:49:56 Sheila 2 : Absolutely PeggyG!
11:50:29 PeggyG : hard to physically move a middle schooler :-) not that you would want to...!
11:51:09 Sheila 2 : I've had former students now adults coming back and sharing fond memories, which I don't remember. Small acts can make big impacts.
11:51:21 PeggyG : what are you teaching them if you say "don't let me catch you..." does it say it's ok to do it somewhere else?
11:52:08 pamela livingston : There is a list of things that would help students if we allowed them; cell phones; music; iPods
11:52:17 Maureen : Good question Peggy.... I do the same thing, but don't feel like I'm being supportive of admin.
11:52:29 McTeach (Karen) : I just got in big trouble this week for letting a student use cellphone to look at a world map.
11:52:38 Maureen : Are we teaching them that they can pick and choose the rules??
11:52:49 Lisa Parisi : Peggy. I am telling them that sometimes you have to follow rules in school. But in our classroom, as long as we have a reason to "break the rule" we will as long as it stays in the room
11:52:57 PeggyG : the kids all learn which teachers they can "get away with things" and which they can't -- just like with their parents
11:53:07 pamela livingston : Lisa Nielsen (The Innovative Educator) and Willyn Webb's book will be out before long. Will be amazing - about cell phones for kids.
11:53:59 PeggyG : there are always interesting conversations about whether rules should be stated positively or negatively (don't do this) or (do this)
11:54:15 woodenmask : The amount of time a Middle School student can spend defining the terms in rules and looking for loopholes can totally dominate the time we need in class for other things.
11:54:41 Maureen : @woodenmask- many of my middle school kids will become fine lawyers
11:54:48 MariaK : I think we need to be explicit with our directions - tell about the specific behavior - don't couch it in sarcasm or not so suble hints...
11:54:50 PeggyG : when you ask kids to help you come up with the rules for your classroom they almost always state them as negatives (at least in my experience)
11:55:06 PeggyG : I agree Maria about being explicit
11:55:21 MariaK : yes Peggy - and i was told to try to restate in the positive.
11:55:24 Maureen : @peggyG- I have had the same experience- and had to work hard to make the kids come up with positive expectations
11:55:34 McTeach (Karen) : And what about when the rule is wrong...or outdated?
11:55:47 MariaK : If they say - Don't hit . I ask - what would you be doing if you were not hitting someone.
11:55:51 PeggyG : you're so right John about the amount of time it can consume with Middle Schoolers
11:56:14 McTeach (Karen) : Thank you!!! Exactly my thought!
11:56:23 PeggyG : sounds like the 60's bumper stickers--"challenge authority" :-)
11:56:24 pamela livingston : I never understood the hat rule either
11:56:39 Maureen : Not sure about that Lisa. I think that if we- as adults- can make the case, then admin will change.
11:57:02 Lisa Parisi : Really Maureen? You really believe that? Has that been working so far?
11:57:02 Maureen : The hat thing came from anti gang stuff- at least that's what I thought.
11:57:07 PeggyG : I really believe in using positive statements for classroom norms (don't really like the word rules)
11:57:26 pamela livingston : At one time there were very specific rules about taking off your hat to women and inside, etc. like in my father's time
11:57:53 PeggyG : yes pamela! it's showing respect for someone else
11:58:00 Lisa Parisi : Hello Jamie
11:58:13 connect2jamie : Good morning all! Late, but....
11:58:31 PeggyG : in our school the rule no hats was meant to deter the spread of lice
11:58:47 Lisa Parisi : That should be no sharing hats, then.
11:58:49 pamela livingston : But yet another throughback to the 19th century (hats)
11:58:50 connect2jamie : ick! Lice is always a problem!
11:58:50 MariaK : or keep the lice under cover - so to speak
11:59:03 PeggyG : but a no hats rule is AZ has to be changed when it comes to really hot weather because they need to be protected from the sun and skin cancer
11:59:19 Maureen : I have kids running from building to building-for almost every class-they wear their hats. I sometimes don't even notice... but when I do, ask them to take them off
11:59:20 rpotterfield : In some schools, it's a safety issue--kids (kids!) have smuggled guns into schools under hats. Have any others had concerns like this?
11:59:22 MariaK : we are allowed to have our hats on outdoors.
11:59:35 pamela livingston : My daughter used to wear a hat and get in trouble but she said the hat made her feel protected. She was bullied.
11:59:47 Lisa Parisi : If that is a concern, @rpotterfield, then it should be a rule.
11:59:47 PeggyG : interesting point rpotterfield--hadn't heard that but it makes sense
11:59:50 connect2jamie : Outdoors only here in hot south TX too.
12:00:47 pamela livingston : At one school the questions were Is it Nice? Is it Necessary? On t-shirts, etc.
12:01:23 PeggyG : and there are religions that require certain dress that may include head covers that schools need to accommodate
12:02:02 Sheila 2 : We deal with t-shirts with language on them.
12:02:08 Maureen : I think that we sometimes have to ignore a rule just to show that we are human. For example, I had a 7th grader swear in class- it was really quiet and it was pretty bad.... but he had just lost his work on the computer. I told him that everyone makes mistakes and that was his. Done.
12:02:19 PeggyG : that's the problem with "rules"--you can never define every possible thing people need to do to be good human beings
12:02:25 connect2jamie : Yes, we have many Muslim girls & moms that wear their head covering, and that is not a problem b/c it's a religious observance.
12:02:41 Lisa Parisi : Yes, Maureen. But if the principal had been in the room at the time, what would have happened?
12:02:55 pamela livingston : At my daughter's school both girls and boys had to take hats off.
12:02:56 connect2jamie : @maureen love that.
12:02:59 Maureen : sorry- phone call...........
12:03:06 Sheila 2 : Welcome smithtk
12:03:16 smithtk : Thx
12:03:24 connect2jamie : @maureen you de-escalated a situation that could be taken care of quickly and appropriately
12:03:39 pamela livingston : The rigidity around gender is another thing which hurts some people.
12:04:12 connect2jamie : I think my principal would have been ok with that response,had she been there. Would yours, @maureen?
12:04:41 Maureen : maybe, maybe not.
12:04:59 PeggyG : have you read/used Ron Clark's "Excellent 11" or "Essential 55"?
12:05:35 Lisa Parisi : Yes, Pamela, gender issues bug me.
12:07:01 woodenmask : The job of 8th graders is to push behavior and find acceptable limits. Unfortunately, the job of applying limits is my job as their teacher.
12:07:07 PeggyG : as a principal I would have understood if I had heard that and would have commented on the deep frustration he was feeling and not the words. Now if he started throwing desks in anger that would be different
12:07:15 pamela livingston : Me too Lisa I'm also a PFLAG mom so am involved.
12:07:31 Lisa Parisi : What is PFLAG?
12:08:09 pamela livingston : PFLAG = Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. It's mostly parents who love their children who came out.
12:08:15 Lisa Parisi : Ahhh
12:09:22 PeggyG : I have a hard time accepting a poster on a wall that would say "don't be a jerk" but I can definitely see having that conversation with kids and using that language when you remind them about appropriate behavior
12:09:39 Lisa Parisi : I wouldn't put that on the wall, Peggy. LOL
12:09:43 smithtk : good point - will they be more comfortable with more opportunities to practice being responsible, therefore pushing the rebel button less often
12:10:18 pamela livingston : Thoughts even random ones that you believe in cause specific actions. I think cognitive therapy ought to be something we get in PD every year.
12:10:47 PeggyG : good idea pamela
12:11:11 PeggyG : those are the kinds of rules Ron Clark includes in his book, Lisa
12:11:12 smithtk : maybe more important once they get the good feeling from it
12:11:18 pamela livingston : Children may act like it's not important when their friends are looking
12:11:37 pamela livingston : Starting with a positive intent
12:11:38 connect2jamie : Yes they do like that. It affirms them as human being.
12:12:16 smithtk : true, drives me nuts when teachers don't say hi
12:12:40 woodenmask : Just looked up the West Point Honor Code - "A cadet will not lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those who do." Purposely vague.
12:12:47 smithtk : it's a cultural signal
12:12:51 connect2jamie : Yes we work on that @lisa. It is very hard for many kids. They don't know how to reply every time they meet someone. They need us to tch them how.
12:12:53 pamela livingston : The Dalai Lama said start with compassion for all people
12:13:00 pamela livingston : Set that tone
12:13:03 woodenmask : Mine always hide...
12:13:48 connect2jamie : It reminds me of when I lived in Germany. In that country, every SINGLE time you walk into any store--big or small--you are greeted by the staff. You need to say hello to them too, and when you leave you say goodbye. Every single time. I liked that.
12:14:23 PeggyG : thanks for sharing the West Point Honor Code--interesting!
12:14:26 Lisa Parisi : Remember To Sir With Love
12:15:02 PeggyG : I loved that movie Lisa!!!! Still do!
12:15:20 Lisa Parisi : They learned respect
12:15:39 smithtk : if kids see teachers not acknowledging each other aren't they learning it is normal? Is this something we want to model?
12:16:03 PeggyG : good point smithtk--not the best example for kids
12:16:03 pamela livingston : Culture drives so much - walk into any school and in a short time you will "feel" it
12:17:04 Sheila 2 : Find value in each person, not if they conform to my views.
12:17:18 Sheila 2 : Welcome to "Conversations show"
12:17:22 mecheverria : Hello
12:17:24 PeggyG : well said Sheila! I completely agree with that
12:17:26 MariaK : Pkay, Peggy and Lisa...I now have the theme song from To Sir with Love in my head...
12:17:37 PeggyG : me too Maria!!
12:17:37 MariaK : oops - okay
12:17:38 smithtk : part of succeedingin our culture is understanding some of the positive norms
12:18:02 smithtk : we see cultures clash when norms are not exhibited
12:18:06 PeggyG : and I'm going to look for my video right after this show is over
12:18:28 PeggyG : those aren't "rules"
12:18:42 pamela livingston : I think that's culture not rules
12:18:46 Lisa Parisi : There only rules in school
12:18:50 Lisa Parisi : They're
12:18:53 Sheila 2 : Yes, smithtk
12:18:56 Lisa Parisi : Yes, I know how to spell
12:19:02 pamela livingston : School has culture too it's not in the rules
12:19:13 pamela livingston : Not just in the rules
12:20:04 pamela livingston : If people follow the behavior and actions and ways of interacting it's culture
12:20:33 PeggyG : that's why I like Ron Clark's second book "excellent 11"--it all about qualities that motivate, inspire and educate and isn't about rules. like compassion, common sense, appreciation, etc.
12:21:39 smithtk : but smiling or nodding hello is such a different level of custom and one that will help students in their futures
12:21:44 PeggyG : sometimes there are very good reasons to bring your own food (having a grandson with celiac disease)
12:22:14 Maureen : Seems like they are designed to teach compliance more than anything else.
12:22:24 pamela livingston : The rules are about the adults mostly
12:22:28 Sheila 2 : In Belize, the Mayan girls hide their smiles with their hands. When taking pictures, no smiles.
12:22:43 PeggyG : that's why I have such a problem with "rules"--there are always reasons for exceptions! look at the phonics/decoding rules :-) tons of exceptions to most of them but teachers still use them
12:23:26 MariaK : That's why i tell my lang arts folks that they shouldn't call them rules.
12:23:31 smithtk : good point, agree sheila2 - across cultures we need to be aware. Differences in Asia also.
12:24:16 PeggyG : teacher's tone of voice and rolling eyes can communicate tons!!!!
12:24:22 slmteach : i don't think all of our rules demonstrate an appropriate purpose (to children). if the students see the importance and value of the rule they will be more invested in following the rules. *so then it's our responsibility to teach why these rules or expectations would be important
12:24:42 PeggyG : outstanding point simteach!!!
12:24:45 Sheila 2 : good point simteach
12:26:07 McTeach (Karen) : People become disrespectful when they've been disrespected
12:26:08 PeggyG : adults too--will challenge rules when they don't understand the purpose
12:26:32 Lisa Parisi : And that, @simteach, is why I don't follow all the school rules. I don't understand the point of them
12:27:12 PeggyG : I have a really hard time with sarcasm but you're not saying what you mean and kids have to figure out what you really mean
12:27:49 woodenmask : One of the historians I was reading wrote that for most of human history, we based our human relations on Power. We all knew what that meant - you have it or you don't.
12:27:50 Sheila 2 : So shouldn't we have a discussion of the rules before we break them?
12:28:05 woodenmask : Now we base it on Respect - and we can't agree on what that looks like
12:28:22 connect2jamie : very interesting point @woodenmask
12:28:38 PeggyG : and now that people are tweeting and posting on facebook those sarcastic comments they are part of their digital footprint that could be seriously misinterpreted
12:28:46 PeggyG : Chip Wood's books are great!
12:29:05 McTeach (Karen) : They'd better get sarcasm before they reach me in seventh grade!
12:29:39 PeggyG : I think sarcasm comes across as always being negative--I have a hard time listening to my grandkids when all they use is sarcasm
12:30:17 PeggyG : but do you think your kind of "sarcasm" is hurtful McTeach? I don't
12:30:52 pamela livingston : Sarcasm is a tough thing really tough. I read a quote saying that sarcasm is meanness. Irony and jokes are something else. "No dark sarcasm in the classroom" - Pink Floyd "The Wall"
12:31:07 MariaK : I think most shows on tv and movies model sarcasm for folks.
12:31:09 PeggyG : great quote pamela!
12:31:11 McTeach (Karen) : No, I don't think it's hurtful...but what if a kid doesn't get it?
12:31:23 PeggyG : then you would explain it to them, right?
12:31:29 connect2jamie : Ahhh! Pink Floyd! :D
12:31:31 pamela livingston : Sarcasm is all over TV now it's why I can hardly watch it anymore
12:31:34 McTeach (Karen) : Yes, definitely!
12:31:37 woodenmask : I'm going to have to leave, now. Just heard a crash.
12:31:45 Lisa Parisi : Bye John
12:31:53 PeggyG : sometimes your jokes fall dead when people don't understand and you explain why you thought it was funny
12:32:00 McTeach (Karen) : But what happens when the students see the principal disrespecting the teachers?
12:32:13 PeggyG : that should NEVER happen McTeach!!!!
12:32:20 slmteach : How and who gets to decide which rules can be broken and which cannot though?
12:32:29 McTeach (Karen) : Peggy...happens every day.
12:32:40 Maureen : I also don't care about some of the rules. ie gum chewing- but if someone goes to a job interview and is chewing gum... chances are they won't get the job. Kids need to understand context and school is one of the contexts they need to understand.
12:32:49 PeggyG : that makes me so sad!!!!!
12:32:52 slmteach : I am sure our students would differ with use on which rules can or cannot be broken
12:32:52 Lisa Parisi : YEs, Maureen!
12:33:12 PeggyG : good example Maureen
12:33:15 pamela livingston : If a principal disrespects a teacher publicly that school's in trouble
12:33:17 Sheila 2 : We had a 40 minute discussion on fundraising in our school - guidelines. It takes time .. . .
12:33:21 McTeach (Karen) : I probably shouldn't be chatting about it.
12:33:44 PeggyG : just like going to a job interview for teaching with a pierced tongue or lip--your choice but good chance you won't get hired
12:34:19 pamela livingston : Adults break rules all the time that they don't believe in
12:34:39 PeggyG : do you teach kids there are rules you don't need to follow and rules you have no choice about following????
12:35:04 Maureen : BUt when kids go from teacher to teacher- they can't change their clothes, lose the gum, the cell phone, etc... doesn't really help in middle school
12:35:44 PeggyG : try going through a red light in the middle of the night when you think no one is watching and the police officer pulls up behind you
12:35:59 Jose Rodriguez -> puentesalmundo: hola amigos..
12:36:04 PeggyG : I agree Maureen
12:36:09 Jose Rodriguez -> puentesalmundo: disculpen hubo un error en la hora
12:36:25 pamela livingston : Teaching kids to discern is one of our jobs
12:36:40 Maureen : @Peggy- we have 2 stops signs in my town. I got stopped one day after rolling thru both.. My excuse was that no one was coming. Lucky it was a local cop ...:-)
12:36:40 slmteach : interesting food for thought...it's a tough call and discussion certainly is the key. I must go, thanks for the conversation!
12:36:45 PeggyG : teachers are usually good rule followers :-)
12:36:56 PeggyG : very funny Maureen!!
12:37:04 pamela livingston : I don't find teachers good rule followers - oh that was a grin
12:37:11 PeggyG : we need to continue this conversation!!!
12:37:23 PeggyG : you get us all excited and charged up and then the time is up!
12:37:43 PeggyG : moral stages of development :-)
12:37:44 pamela livingston : It's like therapy! Your time is now up!
12:37:57 pamela livingston : ha
12:37:59 connect2jamie : LOL!
12:38:07 PeggyG : thanks everyone for a great conversation!
12:38:19 Lisa Parisi : http://ettconversations.blogspot.com/
12:38:22 rpotterfield : Thank you!
12:38:26 pamela livingston : Thanks so much all great afternoon all
12:38:40 connect2jamie : Thanks all--it's always good to touch base with you on Sunday mornings, my friends!!
12:38:41 PeggyG : Easter is in 2 weeks
12:38:45 Lisa Parisi : Bye
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