CCK08 Weekly Chat #4

Connectivism and Connective Knowledge Online Course
Week#4 Discussion
October 3, 2008

11:53 ustreamer-49423 : ines cambiasso: hi
11:55 davidal : Hello! Good evening here in Holland!
11:56 ustreamer-10015 : Hi, I am Jorge Crom from Buenos Aires
11:56 davidal : Hola Jorge!
11:57 ustreamer-10015 : Hola David y hola a todos.
11:57 davidal : Yeah! Me is another David
11:57 ustreamer-10015 : Hola to all the Davids
11:57 davidal : Hahahahaha
11:57 davidal : How many Davids?
11:59 edtechtalk : to join in skype 'worldbridges'. Make sure to pause your Ustream first
11:59 davidal : I've been lost this week....
11:59 jpachon : hello
12:00 sebathuer : hello to everybody!
12:00 ustreamer-25917 : hello
12:00 ustreamer-71855 : 71855 JoAnn: Hi!
12:00 sebathuer : Hi Jorge... another from Argentina here :)
12:00 ustreamer-25917 : do I get a name here?
12:00 davidal : What a lot of spanish speakers!
12:01 sebathuer : si señor! ;)
12:01 jpachon : si
12:01 davidal : Es genial!
12:01 jpachon : hola david
12:02 anitsirk : hello. good evening / afternoon
12:02 ustreamer-49423 : ines yo tambien
12:02 jpachon : hola ines y sebasthuer
12:03 ustreamer-25917 : Why do some people have names here and others are just numbers?
12:03 dougsymington : if you don't login your a "guest"
12:03 dougsymington : those with names have logged in with ustream account
12:03 sebathuer : hola! tal vez podríamos comenzar a escribir algo en nuestros blogs en español
12:03 coarsesalt : feel free to drop in questions as they come up...
12:03 jpachon : yes, sing up
12:03 sebathuer : además del inglés ;)
12:03 ustreamer-25917 : @dougsymington thank you
12:03 coarsesalt : my spanish is very weak... my french is better
12:04 injenuity : @dougsymington Thanks for tweeting link. I always forget.
12:04 dougsymington : yw
12:04 sebathuer : for spanish community, of course ;)
12:04 dougsymington : finally remembered myself!
12:05 dougsymington : hard to self-direct learning after being and making a career of spoon-feeding
12:05 sebathuer : Question: I think networking learning is good to explain complex learning. What about simple learning? Does a kid learn to write making connections between letters, words or sentences?
12:07 sebathuer : I have some problems with audio? I'm the only one?
12:07 edtechtalk : anyone else having audio problems?
12:07 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: I think there is a wide variety of modality learnings --and the students can just dive in to all the great organized material and flexible learning.
12:08 dougsymington : some cutting in and out here, buffering, but not too bad here
12:08 dougsymington : re audio
12:08 LisaMLane : @sebathuer, no audio problem here
12:08 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: my audio is very clear
12:08 sebathuer : thanks, maybe my connection :(
12:09 injenuity : Can people learn to learn like this, or is it biological? Does it just come naturally to some people? Does it have to do with technology literacy? Any literacy?
12:09 davidal : Spanish speakers, please, send me a mail and I will link you to my blog... This way we will make more structure... ;) [email protected]
12:09 LisaMLane : careful, Stephen, Catherine will accuse you of Forced Migration
12:09 edtechtalk : Just started streaming on EdTechTalk A as well. For those having audio problems, you can also try listening at:
12:09 LisaMLane : like she did me
12:09 mmvcentro : @Hola David! [email protected]
12:10 cogdog : Konichi wa
12:10 LisaMLane : why explain that up front?
12:10 LisaMLane : it's a voluntary course in the first place
12:11 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: lots on online courses and traditional courses -- are sometimes more "limited" and set tighter parameters -- but I love the information that has been given in this course and the students' and professors' dialogal discussions.
12:11 LisaMLane : and I would have been discouraged from joining if you'd told me I needed content knowledge
12:11 dougsymington : you can prereq until you're blue in the face, but same "issues" will present
12:11 edtechtalk : Dave - the Katie Couric of EdTech
12:12 edtechtalk : belaboring points and all
12:12 ustreamer-7687 : but perky!
12:12 LisaMLane : wouldn't that undermine the intent of the class?
12:13 LisaMLane : exactly -- it was very clear to me listening to the planning sessions
12:13 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann -- I agree with Doug. I think prior knowledge guidelines might help -- but for this course -- I think there was a beauty in jumping in. However I have taken 5 course online before this one. I do get challenged by how to use some of the technology -- still.
12:13 cogdog : Seems more worry about the people NOT getting it than the ones who are...
12:13 injenuity : Where did the enrolled students come from? I think I expected the students would be people who already work in a networked environment.
12:14 LisaMLane : they didn't miss it -- they thought it didn't apply to them
12:14 coarsesalt : @Lisa lol
12:14 LisaMLane : that's why they ask me when the quiz is due even though it's posted in three places
12:14 coarsesalt : @injenuity... they were all kinds of people
12:15 dougsymington : exactly re dependence : permeates education
12:15 cogdog : conditioned
12:15 jpachon : ¿people to connect people??? is this my idea...
12:15 LisaMLane : they have bizarre individual learning styles?
12:15 injenuity : @coarsesalt would be very interesting to do a quick survey to find out how people heard about it
12:15 ustreamer-25445 : Isn't one of the "21st century" skills being able to work with/solve your own emergent (personal) learning needs?
12:15 LisaMLane : and make you drink!
12:16 cogdog : Maybe a problem is calling it a "course"
12:16 coarsesalt : @25445 yes... i think it is.
12:16 coarsesalt : @cogdog... but what do you call it
12:16 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: I'd like to be responsible for my own situation -- and networking has helped me receive lots of information about how to deal with my gaps. In fact that is partially what I am getting out of this course. I know longer want to be led around -- but I do like the connective links -connectivism
12:16 LisaMLane : @cogdog should it be a be-in? a happening?
12:16 SasaSi : hi all
12:16 anitsirk : @cogdog: i think that issue was already addressed somewhere
12:16 coarsesalt : then you're just playing with langugae
12:16 injenuity : @coarsesalt For example, I promoted it on my campus. If people heard about it from me 2nd hand, maybe they weren't the type of people who would be successful in this environment
12:16 jpachon : but the tools have many options...i.e software, chat, chat video..its a kind of the envoriment
12:17 cogdog : @anitsirk- I've been cutting class
12:17 suechatham : I do not work in a networked environment (at least I don't think I do.) I just accepted a professorship and will be teaching online. ALthough I have done that before I would like to learn ways to improve the community of the learners.
12:17 LisaMLane : and tell you why they're right
12:17 LisaMLane : but how do you get people who are trained to follow to go it on their own?
12:17 anitsirk : sidenote @cogdog: mount fuji is probably interesting for taking pics ;-)
12:17 injenuity : So how did everyone here in the chat hear about the course? I think I first heard on Twitter.
12:18 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: I think we all just have to get aggitated sometimes -- at times to provoke our learning situations.
12:18 ustreamer-25445 : Parents... and teachers work toward planned obsolescence:-)
12:18 dougsymington : @injenuity Twitter for me too
12:18 suechatham : I read about it in the Chronicle of Higher Education
12:18 anitsirk : @ingenuity: can't remember. either twitter or george's blog or oldaily
12:18 jpachon : tell that chronicle...
12:19 SasaSi : @injenuity OLDaily
12:20 LisaMLane : it's too distributed -- a lot of us don't remember anyway
12:20 ustreamer-37607 : facebook
12:20 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: I found out on Scope
12:20 injenuity : So I'm thinking people who heard directly from facilitators are probably more successful
12:20 ustreamer-96891 : I found out about it from Dave Pollard's "How to Save the World"
12:20 jpachon : facebok and blogs
12:20 anitsirk : @stephen: next time :-)
12:20 injenuity : and the further you go, like dropping a rock in a lake, the more confused people get
12:21 dougsymington : Stephen, what do you think that would indicate?
12:21 LisaMLane : you guys will surely need a month in the Bahamas before you do this again
12:21 dougsymington : re how heard about course?
12:21 ustreamer-67867 : No idea Doug
12:21 injenuity : I think it's more than just the hearing about it. Those who were closer, were already learning when the course started
12:21 LisaMLane : LOL
12:21 injenuity : they already had the framework and may have participated in it
12:21 ustreamer-49423 : through George
12:21 LisaMLane : too late -- I printed it
12:22 LisaMLane : maybe I'll put it back up!
12:22 jpachon : and video??? envoriment too
12:22 LisaMLane : with all my notes
12:22 LisaMLane : where did he update it?
12:22 mmvcentro : goo idea Lisa
12:22 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Good for you Lisa!!!
12:22 LisaMLane : LOL much longer
12:23 anitsirk : has a copy saved from oct. 2007 for the draft:
12:24 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: This week --Scope has been gathering the Technology History-- people and things-- a museum
12:24 injenuity : The "advanced organizer" happened before the course started
12:24 LisaMLane : google cached it also:
12:26 coarsesalt : questions re: history of networks?
12:26 jpachon : the evolution that's network
12:27 dougsymington : how much of "legacy" behaviour is rooted in computer programmers/programming culture? and is that changing as non-programmers enter 'nets?
12:27 ustreamer-7687 : 2600 is an error code
12:27 LisaMLane : I'm Googling, I'm Googling
12:27 mmvcentro : ;-
12:28 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Business and hackers -- Educators, and technology developers --mmm... there is a lot to cover and collect -- so it is not lost.
12:28 injenuity : Here (not saying this site is valid) but but I think Phase I happened organically and before the formal class started. People who weren't part of the network before it started, jumped in at Phase II
12:29 LisaMLane : Hacking Memes:
12:30 ustreamer-57953 : questions from the group?
12:30 ustreamer-57953 : on the week?
12:30 ustreamer-57953 : history of networks?
12:30 edtechtalk :
12:30 jpachon : ¿the networks really had a evolution?
12:31 ustreamer-67867 : It's an enlightenment
12:31 jpachon : ¿what happed?
12:31 ustreamer-7687 : can you really call LOLcats an example of Intelligent Design?
12:31 LisaMLane : exactly!
12:31 LisaMLane : and thought were happening at the time, but weren't
12:31 ustreamer-7687 : CB radio....
12:32 LisaMLane : 10-4 good buddy
12:32 jpachon : o tranformation...
12:33 ustreamer-7687 : of course it is! AOL = Amateurs On Line, remember that?
12:33 LDinSTL : I don't suppose that "programmers" have a monolithic culture any more
12:33 LisaMLane : every man his own programmer
12:33 ustreamer-7687 : A lot fothe geek culture has simply been appropriated, esp by next generation
12:34 jpachon : not behavior
12:34 ustreamer-7687 : etymology, that's how you measure it
12:34 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Perhaps the speed of change is faster because of how we do things -- but I think we are already entering the next change cycle -- and we can look back to the Web 2.0 and technological online learning revolution -- although I might call it world communication transformational.
12:34 jpachon : that influences the behavior
12:35 dougsymington : thinking more about the hacker ethos and "hardcore" programmers uber geeks
12:35 sebathuer : Are networks like biological organism? Does they have an evolution in this way?
12:35 injenuity : I think we're attributing too much to web 2.0, and not enough to simple increased access
12:35 ustreamer-7687 : code enables the meme, but the code also is an instantiation of the meme
12:35 dougsymington : nicely put Dave -- different currency
12:35 LisaMLane : so anyone who writes any code at all is a programmer?
12:36 coarsesalt : 10 print "dave";
12:36 ustreamer-7687 : human behavior doesn't fundamentally change. getting street cred is getting street cred, whether that's being favorited on YouTube or getting props on UseNet
12:36 jpachon : Mcluhan say "the medium is the message"
12:36 LisaMLane : well, the medium carries its own message along with the message
12:37 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Hi Injenuity -- "increased access" for sure -- and how much more is this going to increase?
12:37 ustreamer-10015 : Connections, reconnections, lost of links, etc. This is the way networks evolve
12:37 ustreamer-67867 : Downes: 1/3 earthworm!
12:37 LisaMLane : searching for a blog written by an earthworm...
12:38 ustreamer-10015 : C. Elegans
12:38 jpachon : involve and creative a new behavior about the media
12:38 mmvcentro : Good! We can become butterflies! :-)
12:38 LisaMLane : it's the little scissors that are there when you need them
12:39 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: are we mirroring each other better through the internet -- exponential shifts
12:41 ustreamer-79297 : exactly george
12:42 ustreamer-57953 : knowledge mobilization :)
12:42 davidal : THanks!
12:42 ustreamer-79297 : so the choice has to lie with the students!
12:42 jpachon : The sciences of learning include cognitive science, educational psychology, computer science, anthropology, sociology, neuroscience, and other fields.
12:42 ustreamer-79297 : learners = teachers ?
12:42 LisaMLane : and *that's* why the course can't be too structured
12:42 jpachon : the book of cambridge
12:42 coarsesalt : that got them riled up :)
12:43 ustreamer-79297 : there is no one right way
12:43 jpachon : ¿the connectivism is a new science?
12:43 ustreamer-57953 : @jpachon - no, not yet
12:43 jpachon : thanks
12:44 badgerjen01 : looks like the google scanned it ...
12:44 ustreamer-10015 : Connectivism is a theory.
12:44 ustreamer-79297 : @jpachon: the science already exists... i.e chaos, complexity theory, game theory
12:44 ustreamer-79297 : hrm.. i guess those are theories too
12:44 ustreamer-67867 : Right - the science exists - ikt's not a question of 'evidence' per se
12:44 ustreamer-7687 : 25445 - quick n dirty response AFAIK - systems looks at interactions between components; different components interact in different ways. W/ networks, the interactions tend to be similar
12:44 ustreamer-79297 : why similar, necessarily?
12:45 ustreamer-7687 : 79297 chaos theory describes my job pretty well...;-p
12:45 ustreamer-67867 : The word "necessarily" is a one of those words rooted in a universalist-based world view
12:45 mmvcentro : you do not need us to validate you :-)
12:45 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: impacts are influenced by the impactors.
12:46 LisaMLane : it's OK -- the Enlightenment took a very long time and the word was applied in similar ways
12:46 ustreamer-79297 : @67867: ouch! i was actually asking why networks can't be both different and/or similar
12:46 ustreamer-7687 : in a network, the nodes and connections are more similar than different - PC network, telephone, brain
12:46 ustreamer-57953 : @7687 - yes
12:46 ustreamer-7687 : in a system, the components and the way they interact are different - pump, condenser, piping...
12:46 sebathuer : Sorry buy my connection is terrible and i have no audio. is it a way to listen this session later?
12:47 ustreamer-79297 : they are different but they connect through _standards_
12:47 mmvcentro : yes, sebarhuer, there will be a recording
12:47 ustreamer-79297 : standard interfaces
12:47 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Body/mind/brain/emotion/spirit passing through pipes of network
12:47 ustreamer-10015 : This is the present situation of Network Science, nodes are almost all the same, links are allmost all the same, And nodes and links are completely different. This needs to change.
12:47 ustreamer-7687 : yes. API similar ida to gear mesh surfaces
12:48 ustreamer-79297 : @10015: link??
12:48 sebathuer : @mmvcentro why, clickin on the gsiemen's video clips menu?
12:48 dougsymington : re networks and "similar connections" have to be "rules of engagement" for nodes to be able to find one another, dont' they?
12:48 ustreamer-79297 : yes, imo... rules of engagement = standards
12:48 mmvcentro : @sebatthuer, prpbably tomorrow the links to the recording will be at the Daily
12:48 dougsymington : prefer "guidelines" but sure
12:48 ustreamer-10015 : Standards are against evolution
12:49 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: my great grandmother -- isolated on a farm left a journal to read.
12:49 LisaMLane : in some places mail was optimized - speed doesn't mean optimization
12:49 sebathuer : thanks mmvcentro!
12:49 ustreamer-57953 : @lisa - good point
12:49 jpachon : no yhe standar is so similar to quality
12:49 ustreamer-79297 : @10015: they are not at all... behavioural standards allow for within-group organization amond social animals
12:50 LisaMLane : now we get stuff really fast, but it's full of typos and hasty commentary; is that optimized?
12:50 ustreamer-57953 : @lisa - slow vs depth is an important tension point to be considered
12:50 ustreamer-7687 : Lisa - perhaps, if the timeliness of the content > need to every i dotted
12:50 jpachon : i.e standard a product to market
12:51 LisaMLane : @7687 sometimes the point is lost entirely due to haste and errors
12:51 jpachon : some behavior change
12:51 ustreamer-57953 : i like not getting shot :)
12:51 ustreamer-7687 : Lisa - true, like my last post. :-)
12:51 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann:Lisa if typos -- are part of the communicator's process -- until it changes -- at least they are getting the engagement going -- part of learning.
12:52 LisaMLane : I'm not against typos in speedy communication, but if the communication is affected the haste is a problem.
12:52 ustreamer-79297 : nice SD, more than a learning theory, no? :)
12:52 ustreamer-79297 : correct, all domains, more than learning
12:52 ustreamer-49423 : agree, Lisa
12:53 ustreamer-15734 : bless your hearts
12:53 ustreamer-67867 : Moire than a learning theory
12:53 badgerjen01 : only if you put lipstick on a pig ...
12:53 LisaMLane : or "maverick" -- don't say that
12:53 ustreamer-15734 : Stephen IS a maverick
12:53 mmvcentro : :-)
12:53 ustreamer-15734 : billlions and billllions
12:53 LisaMLane : LOL
12:53 dougsymington : stop it, too early to drink on left coast
12:54 ustreamer-79297 : didn't sarah palin kinda soil the word maverick..
12:54 badgerjen01 : @doug ... but isn't she your global "neighbor"
12:54 LisaMLane : we'll give it back to James Garner instead
12:54 ustreamer-67867 : I'm not a maverick - a maverick is someone who is disagreeable simple for the sake of disagreement, without any particular idea or philosophy, more interested in disruption than reform
12:55 badgerjen01 : @doug ... I think if you stand out on your back deck, you can see her house, right?
12:55 LisaMLane : yes, please, ongoing development -- much better approach than "history"
12:55 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Issues -- application -- why we are sharing.
12:55 ustreamer-15734 : depends on your frame of reference'
12:55 ustreamer-79297 : like tom cruise in top gun
12:55 dougsymington : @badgerjen1 not sure she can see my place
12:55 LisaMLane : @67867 a maverick is someone who takes their own road
12:56 mmvcentro : @Lisa a maverick also moves fast
12:56 ustreamer-79297 : what about brazil? highest per person usage @ 24hr/week
12:56 LisaMLane : it should be a badge of honor for the non-conformist
12:56 coarsesalt : 1. Southwestern U.S. an unbranded calf, cow, or steer, esp. an unbranded calf that is separated from its mother.
12:56 ustreamer-79297 : google also translates it
12:56 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: I think of maveric as someone who shoots a lot and hopes to hit the target.
12:56 LisaMLane : if I were multilingual, I'd have even more to read!
12:56 ustreamer-15734 : maverick 1867, "calf or yearling found without an owner's brand," in allusion to Samuel A. Maverick (1803-70), Texas cattle owner who was negligent in branding his calves. Sense of "individualist, unconventional person" is first recorded 1886, via notion of "masterless."
12:57 ustreamer-79297 : xprize is offering 1million for a portable babelfish device
12:57 ustreamer-15734 : heh - gobbledygook 1944, Amer.Eng., first used by U.S. Rep. Maury Maverick, D.-Texas, (1895-1954), a grandson of the original maverick (q.v.) and chairman of U.S. Smaller War Plants Corporation during World War II. First used in a memo dated March 30, 1944, banning "gobbledygook language" and mock-
12:57 LisaMLane : @15734 so someone who's on their own as a result of negligence?
12:57 ustreamer-15734 : unbranded
12:57 ustreamer-15734 : can't be returned to a specific corral
12:57 mmvcentro : ok. call him sped racer then :-)
12:58 ustreamer-15734 : strange attractor?
12:58 LisaMLane : a mental sharpener
12:58 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: Crystalization and order -- great
12:58 ustreamer-79297 : a "laser"
12:58 ustreamer-15734 : as opposed to now, when we're just instantiating chaos theory
12:59 LisaMLane : LOL
12:59 LisaMLane : go for it
12:59 ustreamer-79297 : we need to instantiate complexity theory
12:59 coarsesalt : what is there other than this
12:59 coarsesalt : doesn't wikipedia control history
12:59 LisaMLane : @coarsesalt not enough time to get into that one
12:59 ustreamer-79297 : @coarsesale but you control wikipedia
12:59 coarsesalt : tee hee
01:00 mmvcentro : No one can deny all the hard work that you have put fo release this "course"
01:00 LisaMLane : with something other than McDonalds and Britney Spears
01:00 ustreamer-79297 : nice
01:00 ustreamer-79297 : well said
01:00 ustreamer-79297 : aww
01:00 ustreamer-71855 : Jo Ann: realignment -- laser connections from place to place for the purpose of "improvements" -- Stephen. I hope that there is a better future
01:00 mmvcentro : lol
01:00 ustreamer-10015 : Thanks!
01:01 LisaMLane : thank you, Stephen -- I love the larger view
01:01 dougsymington : thanks to all for a great session, and enjoy the course!
01:01 ustreamer-79297 : thank you, well done
01:01 LisaMLane : and go help the baby
01:01 anitsirk : thanks for moderating again, dave, and stephen and george as well as the background crew
01:01 SasaSi : bye
01:01 LisaMLane : bye!
01:01 ustreamer-15734 : quit pincking the baby!
01:01 anitsirk : have a nice day / evening
01:02 jpachon : bye and alll...its a great session
01:02 LisaMLane : baby timer
01:02 mmvcentro : bye, everyone, have a nice day
01:02 ustreamer-10015 : bye
01:02 ustreamer-67867 : Bye all - Stephen

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