Teachers Teaching Teachers #135: Opening up to Fair Use - 01.14.09

Post-Show description: 

This podcast has three parts. In the beginning, Susan Ettenheim and Sara Sutter talk about their work together as photography teachers on Youth Voices this semester, and where it might go in the future. The middle half-hour of this podcast is devoted to a lively conversation with Peter Jaszi, Program on Information Justice and Intellectual Property, Washington College of Law, American University. Professor Jaszi has been one of the coordinators of a process that recently led to the publication of the "Code of Best Practices in Fair Use for media Literacy Education -- http://centerforsocialmedia.org/medialiteracy. Finally, Jack Yu and Nori Yoshida join us to talk about their SAT vocabulary video contest at Brainyflix.com.

We have a least three reasons for you to listen to this episode of Teachers Teaching Teachers.

  1. Last semester, Susan Ettenheim, Sarah Sutter, and Chris Sloan brought their digital photography classes together on Youth Voices. Susan and Sarah had their students share final projects in the week before this podcast. In the beginning of this podcast, Susan and Sarah talk about their work together from this semester, and where it might go in the future. Also, you might want to check out more at their online community: Digital Photography | Youth Voices.

  2. The middle half-hour of this podcast is devoted to a lively conversation with Peter Jaszi from the Program on Information Justice and Intellectual Property at Washington College of Law, American University. Professor Jaszi has been one of the coordinators of a process of knowledge-building and consensus-making that recently led to the publication of the Code of Best Practices in Fair Use for media Literacy Education -- http://centerforsocialmedia.org/medialiteracy. Those of us who work with students to publish, distribute and discuss their work online are always dealing with issues of copyright and intellectual property. It was exciting to re-think the issues of fair use with Peter Jaszi.
  3. Two MIT alumni also joined us on this podcast. Jack Yu and Nori Yoshida were class mates at MIT, and now they've launched an SAT vocabulary video contest at Brainyflix.com. We asked them how came up with this idea for using Internet tools to help young people with the SAT. We also wondered what else they are planning.


Click Read more to see a transcript of a chat that was happening during the webcast.


20:50:30 Paul Allison: http://youthvoices.net/community/digital-photography/273
20:50:38 Paul Allison: http://www.centerforsocialmedia.org/resources/publications/code_for_medi...
20:50:45 Paul Allison: http://www.brainyflix.com/
20:51:36 SusanEttenheim: hi- just getting my tea!
20:53:42 SusanEttenheim: hi- just getting my tea!
20:53:49 SusanEttenheim: brb
20:53:53 Paul Allison: Okay
21:00:40 SusanEttenheim: hi fhaas welcome
21:01:38 fhaas: Hello, Susan.
21:05:16 SusanEttenheim: fhaas please remind us where and what you teach?
21:05:54 SusanEttenheim: hi troy!
21:05:56 SusanEttenheim: welcome
21:06:05 fhaas: I am a high school English teacher in Hopkinton, MA.
21:06:06 hickstro: Hi Susan!
21:06:19 SusanEttenheim: welcome!
21:06:28 SusanEttenheim: hi jonelle welcome!
21:06:41 SusanEttenheim: please introduce yourself... where and what do you teach?
21:07:08 SusanEttenheim: how is the sound everyone?
21:07:33 fhaas: It is definitely on the low volume side.
21:07:45 SusanEttenheim: humm can you turn it up on your end?
21:07:55 SusanEttenheim: can you understand?
21:08:20 fhaas: I Can hear but I have it dialed up pretty loud.
21:08:26 SusanEttenheim: me too!
21:08:38 SusanEttenheim: I wonder why...
21:09:08 fhaas: Yeah, it is a bit odd, every bell and whistle of my machine is piercing.
21:10:46 SusanEttenheim: hi james hi sroseman hi lizk!
21:10:53 Liz K: Hi
21:10:55 SusanEttenheim: welcome please introduce yourself
21:10:57 sroseman: hello Susan
21:11:05 SusanEttenheim: where and what do you teach?
21:12:01 Liz K: It's hard to hear
21:12:25 James Sigler: Hello, I teach 3rd grade in Carl Junction, MO
21:13:29 sroseman: I am a sub in Ontario, Canada.
21:13:37 Paul Allison: http://youthvoices.net/community/digital-photography/273
21:14:32 SusanEttenheim: hi gail!
21:14:44 Gail Desler: HI Susan:-)
21:15:07 Liz K: I teach preservice teachers
21:15:19 James Sigler: Yeah, my sound finally working
21:15:28 SusanEttenheim: erhsnyc.org pictures>you can see our setup
21:17:11 Liz K: What resources do you use to teleconference?
21:17:18 SusanEttenheim: hi adina welcome!
21:17:32 Gail Desler: Hi Adina
21:17:40 adinasullivan: Hi Susan and Gail.  Hi all
21:18:30 SusanEttenheim: hi lorna welcome!
21:18:39 Lorna: Hi Susan
21:18:59 SusanEttenheim: we're talking about my class and Sarah's class sharing live this week
21:19:11 Lorna: thanks I was just asking that question
21:19:16 Lorna: you beat me to it
21:19:18 SusanEttenheim: ;)
21:19:46 SusanEttenheim: who in the chat room has mixed synchronous and asynchronous work?
21:23:27 Liz K: What a great idea!
21:27:00 SusanEttenheim: hi jackie! hi lisa!
21:27:05 SusanEttenheim: where and what do you teach?
21:27:08 LisaSteb: Hello
21:27:12 SusanEttenheim: hi jonelle
21:27:19 SusanEttenheim: please introduce yourself!
21:27:20 Gail Desler: Thanks for asking that question, Susan!
21:27:25 Paul Allison: http://www.centerforsocialmedia.org/resources/publications/code_for_medi...
21:27:25 LisaSteb: Mass Middle School Technology
21:28:07 Jackie G: Hi Susan - some lag - feel like I am in Second Life.  I teach gifted kids in Arizona
21:28:08 SusanEttenheim: how interesting... what does that mean Lisa? what grades? students? teachers?
21:28:10 Sarah S: I listened to the presentation of the best practices document this fall. The material is wonderful and really helps clarify what teachers can feel "fair" about doing.
21:28:41 James Sigler: I haven't done both together, but the asynchronous would be a great way to keep other students not talking engaged while that one student is talking syncronously.
21:29:01 LisaSteb: I teach 5-8 technology. Every student in the school for 10 weeks
21:29:19 Paul Allison: http://www.centerforsocialmedia.org/resources/publications/code_for_medi...
21:29:20 SusanEttenheim: exactly James...
21:29:37 SusanEttenheim: Lisa what kinds of subjects do you teach?
21:29:53 Sarah S: The presentation was recorded on UStream and is on the copyrightconfusion wiki. I'll see if I can find the url.
21:30:01 Gail Desler: How about use of copyrighted music as part of a student-made video that will to out on the Internet?
21:30:06 SusanEttenheim: that would be great Sarah!
21:30:27 Gail Desler: I've used Hall Davidson's chart as a guideline, but don't know if that's applicable anymore.
21:30:39 SusanEttenheim: gail do you have a url?
21:30:43 Sarah S: http://copyrightconfusion.wikispaces.com/live
21:30:56 Gail Desler: I'll get it. BRB
21:32:36 James Sigler: How about recording my students as a podcast reading a Reader's Theater play for fluency copywrited by a publishing company?  Posted as a podcast on our class blog?  Legal under Fair Use?
21:33:18 Sarah S: So the issue of transformative use is more to the point than whether the space is considered educational space?
21:33:29 LisaSteb: I teach Microsoft products, typing, internet safety
21:35:18 LisaSteb: sorry lost connection
21:35:19 Sarah S: We've been so paranoid for so long . . .
21:35:32 James Sigler: My students are writing a Reader's Theater play from a Magic Treehouse copywrited book.  Can I post it as a podcast on our class blog under Fair Use?
21:35:48 LisaSteb: I would hope so
21:36:52 Paul Allison: Yes
21:36:58 Gail Desler: Adds significant value to the original piece"
21:37:06 Gail Desler: ?
21:37:11 James Sigler: Two separate plays
21:38:26 James Sigler: One the play is copyrighted. The other, students wrote the play from a copyrighted book
21:38:30 fhaas: How do you deal with school systems that are also operating under paranoid interpretations of fair use?
21:40:16 James Sigler: What can't I post as podcast on my class web page?
21:40:17 LisaSteb: I think you need to work with admin and show the positives and make sure they truely understand the fair use laws. It can be frustrating
21:40:29 Sarah S: I'm going to share this podcast with the administration . . . it might help.
21:42:47 James Sigler: So the ethical position is how good you are at ducking a lawsuit?
21:43:04 fhaas: Exactly, because the terms of fair use are so broad the spectre of litigation is a powerful one. Plus, it seems as though litigation is the only means for gaining clarity, which would have almost any school system running scared.
21:43:29 James Sigler: Or are recording companies being unethical in sending the letter?
21:44:34 James Sigler: This issue sooo needs progressive legislation to provide guidance
21:45:18 Sarah S: The question of adding value is a great place to start with the kids - what have they done with the content to add value, change audience, etc. That's the key idea for their creativity as well as for fair use.
21:46:42 Gail Desler: Does Peter have a sample of project with "interplay" between image and music?
21:46:57 James Sigler: The issue of digital remixing on the interent didn't exist when copyright law was written.  It needs to be updated.
21:47:53 SusanEttenheim: how true james!
21:48:10 LisaSteb: Is there a good copyright site for educators and kids??
21:49:00 Paul Allison: http://youthvoices.net/node/3695
21:49:55 SusanEttenheim: hi Id welcome
21:50:00 SusanEttenheim:  where and what do you teach?
21:50:49 Lorna: very thought provoking - never being quite sure
21:51:54 James Sigler: Fair Use Harbor has is good http://www.stfrancis.edu/cid/copyrightbay/fairuse.htm
21:52:02 LisaSteb: Has a school ever  been sued for a podcast infringement with students
21:52:42 Sarah S: Fair use also works to allow students to use contemporary cultural material to create social commentary
21:53:16 SusanEttenheim: sarah - can you say that on the podcast?
21:53:26 James Sigler: Public Domain like from Library Congress is also a great place to go for out-of-copyright material
21:53:37 SusanEttenheim: yes James - we use that
21:54:09 fhaas: So does this make a lot of Digital Rights Managment measures are essentially an infringement of a users fair use?
21:54:58 James Sigler: @Sarah S I would think suing a school would be bad press for recording companies
21:55:33 Sarah S: @James One would hope so, but on the other hand they might see it as a way of making a point with the teen market . . .
21:57:40 James Sigler: I have already had conversations with my 3rd graders and copyright, Fair Use, and Creative Commons in regard to podcasting and internet research projects
21:58:25 SusanEttenheim: and james have you created rules for the class?
21:58:36 SusanEttenheim: loc.gov/copyright
21:58:46 sroseman: stimulating conversation ..must run
21:59:07 LisaSteb: I have middle school kids and until I talk to them they really have NO IDEA that what copyright is until I cover it in class.
21:59:21 SusanEttenheim: so sarah - do you think what we did is fine or needs some tweeking?
21:59:27 LisaSteb: Even then it seems to have so many gray areas
21:59:41 SusanEttenheim: a LOT of gray areas!
22:00:01 SusanEttenheim: I must say we've talked about copyright law but not really fair use
22:00:14 James Sigler: @Susan Yes, we summarize and add interesting details rather than copy/paste research.  We use only Creative Commons music for podcasts
22:00:16 SusanEttenheim: copyright citizenship humm
22:00:18 Sarah S: Tweaking definitely - I'm thinking about some ideas for giving the kids more asynchronous before hand so they have some connections and comfort level, as well as a common base of information.
22:00:50 Gail Desler: Wonderful session, Peter.  Thank you!
22:01:04 fhaas: Great stuff, Peter!
22:01:08 Lorna: it has been great information
22:01:16 SusanEttenheim: but what do you think of our use of the photgraphs - do you think it's ok?
22:01:33 James Sigler: Digital Citizenship is ethical use of digital/internet media
22:01:49 Lorna: @James absolutely
22:02:05 Sarah S: As far as copyright? Sure. Not only are they repurposed for expressly educational purposes, within an educational platform, they are recontextualized within aesthetic, content and historical contexts.
22:02:11 Paul Allison: http://www.brainyflix.com/
22:02:14 James Sigler: We need to be having these conversations with our students
22:02:23 SusanEttenheim: ok :)
22:03:20 James Sigler: I love watching these videos :)
22:03:27 fhaas: @Susan I am with Sarah on this. I think you are completely justified based on the information we have heard tonight. Better still, present it to the students and listen to what they have to say.
22:04:05 Sarah S: I will certainly put it to the kids for the next round of the project- it might make them be more aware of that recontextualization, which is where the value to them (and their peers) lies.
22:04:23 SusanEttenheim: interesting because we've always thought text can be quoted and used but not music...
22:04:49 James Sigler: I asked my students where they got the music on their mp3 players come from.  Most had older sibling put it on from who-knows-where
22:05:47 SusanEttenheim: that's really funny james
22:06:34 James Sigler: As entertianing as youtube, but more educational
22:06:50 Lorna: this is such a good idea - congratulations for the brain wave
22:07:32 Sarah S: Rockin!
22:07:36 Gail Desler: Oh, this is great!!
22:08:31 James Sigler: Great way idea in the classroom for students to show their learning of content vocab
22:08:39 James Sigler: Super!
22:08:40 LisaSteb: It is nice to see that I am not the only teacher that struggles with this topic
22:09:08 Gail Desler: Have to go.  Thanks everyone for a very informative evening!
22:10:22 Sarah S: Oh absolutely
22:10:42 Sarah S: Great way to get video into a non-video class - just another tool / medium.
22:11:58 Sarah S: This is just the kind of thing tech integrators want teachers to do in their classes.
22:12:47 SusanEttenheim: how true!
22:12:50 Lorna: thanks for the great show
22:13:08 Sarah S: Now we need to get the foreign language teachers to run with the idea.
22:13:42 SusanEttenheim: that would be fun!
22:14:59 LisaSteb: We just started using the FLIP video and the kids are going crazy with it. Advertisements, acting out parts from books, reports
22:15:27 SusanEttenheim: lisa - great idea! I just got one! what kinds of files does that make?
22:15:30 James Sigler: sound cutting ouut.  could be because I have 10 tabs open  :-P
22:15:34 Sarah S: Even using the video feature on a still camera will give decent footage to work with.
22:16:26 James Sigler: @Sarah I just tried that yesterday
22:16:28 Sarah S: The audio quality isn't always great, but you can do a separate audio track with an external mic and they synch them up.
22:16:52 LisaSteb: avi
22:16:55 SusanEttenheim: how would you take the audio out of the video?
22:17:00 SusanEttenheim: ahh
22:17:09 SusanEttenheim: then can you post avi on schooltube?
22:17:18 Sarah S: iMovie HD (not the new version) lets you take out the audio track really easily.
22:17:29 SusanEttenheim: interesting
22:17:34 LisaSteb: Yes
22:17:49 James Sigler: Use Audacity on PC?
22:17:54 SusanEttenheim: a student came to me with a 100mg video from a camera and wanted to email it ... thoughts?
22:17:55 LisaSteb: I use it for my own children. They sing a mean Hannah Montana on Youtube
22:18:14 Sarah S: Audacity is just audio - you can use it to create the audio track, but not to remove an audio from video, from what I understand.
22:18:17 SusanEttenheim: so lisa you upload an avi?
22:18:28 James Sigler: @Susan 100mb?  
22:18:29 Sarah S: FTP the 100mg file. Drop.io?
22:18:44 LisaSteb: Email is tough my flip video allows you to email but it really compresses it and the quality is poor.
22:19:02 SusanEttenheim: she wanted to email it and the videography teacher said that final cut cut the audio in the compression
22:19:17 LisaSteb: yes I think so
22:19:31 Sarah S: Final cut has more control than that - I don't think it would do it automatically with compression.
22:20:46 SusanEttenheim: thanks everyone! goodnight
22:21:01 fhaas: thanks
22:21:04 LisaSteb: Avi is accepted on YOUTUBE
22:21:15 LisaSteb: So I assume it would work on TeacherTUBE
22:21:16 Sarah S: Good night!
22:21:22 LisaSteb: Night everyone
22:22:32 James Sigler: Great show!
22:22:39 James Sigler: Night


Hello Peter, I appreciated your thought provoking interview with Peter Jaszi. He certainly illustrated that educators should approach the whole topic of copyright as 'grey'. You may be interested in this exceptionally helpful education support site we have here in Australia for schools and TAFE (Technical and Further Education) Colleges- http://www.smartcopying.edu.au/scw/go/pid/1/
Cheers Camilla

Thanks for the podcast--- the digital photography work you're doing is fascinating!

There's a lot of teaching materials available at the Media Education Lab at Temple University. As a partner in the development of the Code of Best Practices in Fair Use for Media Literacy Education, we created resources to help teachers explore this topic in more depth.

You can view and discuss video case studies that we created to help teachers explore the doctrine of fair use with students and colleagues.

Also, check out the two "Schoolhouse Rock" style music videos we created to introduce concepts of copyright and fair use to high school and college students:

Renee Hobbs
Media Education Lab
Temple University