Teachers Teaching Teachers #157 - 06.24.09 - (3 of 3) Teaching the New Writing - Kevin, Bryan, Marva, Troy, and Dawn mix it up!
On this podcast, our guest host, Kevin Hodgson helped to wrap up the third episode of a Teachers Teaching Teachers 3-part series that centerd on the book Kevin helped to edit (and contributed a chapter to) called Teaching the New Writing: Technology, Change and Assessment in the 21st Century Classroom.
On June 10, TTT hosts Paul Allison and Susan Ettenheim interviewed the editors about the project, which looks at changes in the writing classroom through the lens of technology and assessment. (listen to the podcast of that show over at TTT#155). In the second show in this series, on June 17, TTT156, Paul turned the host reins over to Kevin as he chatted with some of the chapter writers about the concept of collaboration in the technology-infused classroom.
In this podcast, as Kevin once again graciously agreed to host the show, we looked at the concept of audience and technology is opening up new doors for publication and expanding audiences and what that does to writing in the classroom.
Chapter authors Dawn Reed, high school teacher and teacher-consultant with the Red Cedar Writing Project; Troy Hicks, associate Professor and director of the Chippewa Writing Project; and Bryan Crandall, high school teacher and a teacher-consultant with the Louisville Writing Project, shared examples of their classroom practices to prompt a discussion about audience in writing using digital technology. The topics they discussed included high school students using multimodal ways of writing in a speech class and an example of what happens when you take the senior project “digital.” In addition, Marva Solomon joined us to talk about her work with a small group of struggling elementary school writers. The title of her chapter is “True adventures of Students “Writing Online: Mummies, Vampires and schnauzers, Oh My!”
Please enjoy the podcast, and add a comment with your story about how writing is changing in your classroom.
This podcast is the third of three Teachers Teaching Teachers shows in June that focused on this book. On TTT#155 (June 10) we had the editors of the book. Next for TTT#156 (June 17), we had authors from the different chapters of Teaching the New Writing on the show.
Click Read more to see a transcript of a chat that was happening during the webcast.
20:44:37 Kevin Hodgson: HI
20:45:21 SusanEttenheim: hi kevin!
20:45:29 Kevin Hodgson: Hi Susan
20:45:50 Kevin Hodgson: Just got back from an event at my school, walked dog and tried to get three kids to bed (only one is asleep)
20:46:01 SusanEttenheim: ugh ran in to get my supper but in the process of rearranging my work area and lost the place to put my plate!
20:46:13 SusanEttenheim: wow we're all in the same boat!!!!
20:46:36 SusanEttenheim: it gets much much better! mine are 20 and 22 - both home for the summer but much better at bedtime!!
20:46:39 Kevin Hodgson: I hope the boat can stay afloat
20:46:43 SusanEttenheim: hi marva!
20:46:46 SusanEttenheim: welcome
20:46:51 Marva: hi there
20:47:00 Kevin Hodgson: Hi Marva
20:47:00 SusanEttenheim: hi william!
20:47:09 William Crow: Hi everyone--glad to be here!
20:47:16 Marva: hello
20:47:20 William Crow: I'm getting on Skype in a sec, Susan, and will find you there
20:48:36 Kevin Hodgson: I'm going to bounce off chat so that it does not interfere with my skype
20:50:03 Paul Allison: http://dogtrax.edublogs.org/2009/06/24/join-me-for-round-three-of-ttt/
20:50:34 Marva: oh oh
20:52:33 Paul Allison: Hi Bryan and Dawn... and Sara.
20:52:48 Paul Allison: Susan Ettenheim will be gearing up soon.
20:52:54 Paul Allison: http://dogtrax.edublogs.org/2009/06/24/join-me-for-round-three-of-ttt/
20:53:01 sarabeauchamp: Hello all!
20:53:03 Paul Allison: Kevin will be interviewing again tonight.
20:54:12 Paul Allison: Sara are you in Ohio?
20:54:49 sarabeauchamp: I'm from UPWP Michigan's Upper Peninsula, soon to be moving to Lansing with Troy.
21:00:08 SusanEttenheim: hi everyone!
21:00:14 SusanEttenheim: we'll be broadcasting soon
21:00:17 SusanEttenheim: just setting up
21:01:18 PeggyG: Hi everyone
21:02:11 brcranda: Bryan is in the chat room. Am I allowed to multitask?
21:02:18 SusanEttenheim: hi peggy can you hear us?
21:02:27 SusanEttenheim: hi durff glad you're here!
21:02:33 SusanEttenheim: can you all hear?
21:02:47 Paul Allison: Can anybody hear us?
21:02:54 Christina: yes ... I can hear you
21:02:57 Paul Allison: http://dogtrax.edublogs.org/2009/06/24/join-me-for-round-three-of-ttt/
21:03:49 PeggyG: yes I'm finally hearing :-)
21:04:00 PeggyG: sorry for the delay!
21:04:05 brew7vwp: stream A is working on iTunes
21:04:09 Christina: I hear Susan talking about he delay now
21:04:50 SusanEttenheim: hi everyone - thanks for joining us!
21:04:56 SusanEttenheim: how is the sound for you?
21:05:16 fred_haas: sound is great
21:05:32 SusanEttenheim: wow I think the chat room is iffy tonight - people seem to be getting knocked in and out!
21:05:37 SusanEttenheim: hi larry - welcome!
21:05:39 PeggyG: this has been a fantastic series!! :-)
21:05:40 SusanEttenheim: thanks fred
21:05:46 mrsdurff: ssound now
21:06:26 brew7vwp: I'm excited to hear about audience & purpose
21:06:46 mrsdurff: at friens's in living room so turned sound down
21:07:06 SusanEttenheim: hi everyone again - please introduce yourself! where and what do you teach?
21:07:20 SusanEttenheim: metmuseum.org
21:07:44 boelhower: Boelhower: Teach English in Nebraska
21:07:48 Troy Hicks: Troy Hicks -- Director of Chippewa River Writing Project at Central Michigan University
21:07:48 PeggyG: I love the enthusiasm in your voices even though it's the end of the year!! Great!!
21:08:47 JuneChat: High School teacher in Illinois
21:09:02 SusanEttenheim: hey everyone - could you please move over to the edtechtalk room?
21:09:07 fred_haas: HS English - Hopkinton, MA; Boston Writing Project Tech Liaison
21:09:17 William Crow: E-mail us at [email protected]
21:09:29 William Crow: For more information about Teacher Programs at the Met
21:09:33 Paul Allison: Hi Fred.
21:09:40 fred_haas: Hi Paul
21:09:42 Paul Allison: What are you doing this summer?
21:10:20 brew7vwp: ekphrasis rocks
21:10:29 William Crow: Also, you can call us at (212) 570-3985 for more information about Teacher Programs at the Met
21:11:00 PeggyG: are you all really sitting at a table? :-)
21:11:00 William Crow: Also, more information at www.metmuseum.org/events/teachers
21:11:06 SusanEttenheim: hi sara welcome! please introduce yourself where and what do you teach?
21:11:11 Paul Allison: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/books/teachingnewwriting
21:11:22 Christina: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/books/teachingnewwriting
21:11:23 fred_haas: @Paul- Not too much, hahaha - Painting the house, having a second child, a few teaching presentations, and creating a new journalism class.
21:11:23 PeggyG: http://store.tcpress.com/0807749648.shtml
21:11:54 SusanEttenheim: larry - please introduce yourself! where and what do you teach?
21:12:00 Paul Allison: Buy the book! (I'm sending my son to an expensive college:))
21:12:05 SusanEttenheim: hi dawn welcome! to the chat!
21:12:32 Paul Allison: Welcome Dawn
21:12:32 PeggyG: very persuasive Paul :-)
21:12:42 Dawn: Thanks
21:12:54 SusanEttenheim: hi aaronyost welcome! where and what do you teach?
21:13:06 PeggyG: Where in Western Mass? I went to Umass-Amherst for Masters and Ed.D
21:13:31 brew7vwp: Syracuse!
21:14:21 Paul Allison: Interesting how people have changed.
21:14:25 brcranda: Bryan is heading into his third year! It snows a lot here!
21:14:33 Paul Allison: ...since the book was written.
21:15:01 PeggyG: Wow!!! What a small world! I just noticed that Charlie Moran is one of the authors and he was on my doctoral committee! :-)
21:15:20 SusanEttenheim: hi jenny welcome!
21:15:39 Paul Allison: Peggy, did you mis ttt155? He was on.
21:15:42 brew7vwp: I live in Syracuse... Seven Valleys WP out of SUNY Cortland
21:15:42 SusanEttenheim: june could you move to the edtechtalk room please?
21:15:57 SusanEttenheim: william could you move over to edtechtalk too please?
21:16:04 PeggyG: yes I did! I'll go back and listen to the recording!!!
21:16:06 brew7vwp: we're doing our 2nd SI in a week
21:16:09 JuneChat: could you explain how to move?
21:16:20 Paul Allison: That's cool.
21:16:32 Troy Hicks: @ brew7vwp: Good luck!
21:16:33 brcranda: I know David Franke. He's a great leader and I'm glad there's a local site. I feel ddeprived from what I knew in Louisville.
21:16:46 brew7vwp: David is the best
21:16:58 brew7vwp: thanks @troy
21:17:58 SusanEttenheim: june click on the edtechtalk room and choose join this room
21:18:13 SusanEttenheim: YEAH everyone is here!
21:18:26 SusanEttenheim: welcome everyone - now we really need some introductions please!
21:18:27 Paul Allison: Hi Susan.
21:18:39 SusanEttenheim: please type in where and what you teach?
21:18:49 SusanEttenheim: june glad you made it over here!
21:19:10 William Crow: Hi everyone--I'm visiting today. I oversee programs for teachers at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.
21:19:12 Troy Hicks: Troy Hicks - Director of Chippewa River Writing Project at Central Michigan University
21:19:28 Larry Neuburger: Rural Missouri - English 9-12
21:19:31 Paul Allison: Nice title Troy!
21:19:41 Troy Hicks: @ Paul - thanks!
21:19:43 Christina: I'm Christina from the National Writing Project
21:20:00 fred_haas: HS English @ Hopkinton, MA; Boston Writing Project - Tech Liaison
21:20:25 PeggyG: I'm a retired elementary school principal and university teacher ed. instructor for Arizona State University
21:20:42 JuneChat: High School Teacher in Illinois
21:21:18 fred_haas: More steps in the creation of multimedia creations than a blog, but both are pretty public
21:21:38 brew7vwp: Chris Anderson, Long Tail author, is in a minor plagiarism brouhaha with citing Wikipedia and other sources
21:21:47 Jenny B: Jenny Brandon, Tech Liaison, West Tennessee WP, 2nd grade teacher in rural West TN
21:22:06 PeggyG: that's a really helpful point about blogs!
21:22:09 SusanEttenheim: welcome teri and kmace
21:22:22 kmace: sorry i am late
21:22:24 SusanEttenheim: please introduce yourself - whre and what do you teach?
21:22:25 boelhower: I think that blogs should be edited. But I agree the mind set should be final drafts.
21:22:33 SusanEttenheim: welcome june!
21:23:10 brew7vwp: I'm very much in favor of using hyperlinks in blogs- the citation is more implicit, but assumes reader responsibility
21:23:14 SusanEttenheim: you're never late here! welcome - where and what do you teach?
21:23:27 SusanEttenheim: you're never late here! welcome - where and what do you teach?
21:23:56 boelhower: I think students need writing that is relaxed, though. I use a stxy board to give them a place to just jot down things.
21:23:57 kmace: technology integration specialist - West Virginia
21:24:08 fred_haas: We can't be too schooly about it
21:24:15 Dawn: Good point about links in blogs. Students were also debating what citations should look like online, so we just started to explore this during the project that Troy and I wrote about. It something I would like to further explore with students.
21:24:48 brcranda: the key is inquiry based choice. A kid will write if they have say in what they write...even more if they have choice in genre of how they express themselves.
21:24:48 mahlness: blogs can be used for both assignments and free, creative expression
21:25:06 Teri Nisser: I teach 7th grade Language Arts at St. Agnes Academy-St. Dominic School in Mem
21:25:08 PeggyG: ok-that does it!!! I'm buying the book!! I can tell it's really valuable!!
21:25:14 Troy Hicks: Slightly off subject perhaps, but I think that teaching kids about citation using online tools is critical. The one that I have taken up with my college students and found very useful is Zotero: www.zotero.org
21:25:33 brew7vwp: I don't like teens copping out and making voice mean informal language... including swearing and inappropriate slang is not for "school" writing
21:27:23 Paul Allison: I think students need a lot of different places to publish in many different ways online.
21:27:31 SusanEttenheim: I've been getting emails from students inquiring about an internship opp and have been returning them for editing!
21:28:10 brew7vwp: that's ideal, Paul... writing to fit the situation
21:28:17 boelhower: In regard to "voice," I use iChat in the classroom. I have different activities that show them that what they "type" to a person has real power.
21:28:30 SusanEttenheim: but that's of course after I respond to the content
21:28:41 fred_haas: Isn't this more about establishing expectations as a writer? Don't the students have to begin to think about their purpose and reason for writing? Plus, there are multiple modes or genres that can potentially be present in the same place, ex Twitter bar along with a more formal blog
21:28:42 kmace: is there audio 2nite?
21:28:45 SusanEttenheim: that's great boelhower
21:29:01 SusanEttenheim: yes! for audio click on the volume icon we're on edtechtalk A
21:29:32 Paul Allison: And... I would like to see the different forms/genres next to each other... so that I can easily see a student's chat-talk writing next to more formal essays, next to wiki projects.
21:29:50 SusanEttenheim: hi roblyons welcome - and aaronyost welcome back
21:29:59 SusanEttenheim: where and what do you teach?
21:30:07 SusanEttenheim: welcome back sara
21:30:14 Troy Hicks: @ fred_haas Yes, I agree that it is about setting expectations for purpose and audience. Sadly, most school writing has only an audience of the teacher and a purpose of describing or persuading in academic prose. So, getting to the level of even thinking about different genres is a challenge for many teachers and students.
21:30:27 Paul Allison: Love the idea of collaborating around portfolios.
21:31:06 SusanEttenheim: could they be online portfolios that look basically like blogs?
21:31:22 fred_haas: @Paul & Troy - at this point a lot of different forms can be blended in a single delivery with widgets and pseudo-applets
21:32:04 SusanEttenheim: ah yes the world of widgets harold rheingold teaches a lot about widgets in his classes
21:32:07 Paul Allison: Seems to me that what Bryan is describing -- the state portfolio assessment system in KY -- fits a lot of what we are trying to do with tech and writing,
21:32:20 SusanEttenheim: welcome back bew7
21:32:32 brew7vwp: I wish we had better WAC buy-in
21:32:34 SusanEttenheim: hi bud!
21:32:36 SusanEttenheim: welcome
21:32:47 SusanEttenheim: welcome back jenny
21:32:47 Troy Hicks: @ fred_haas Again, I agree. To what extent do you feel that most teachers and students are capable of blending these genres through tools such as iGoogle or Protopages?
21:32:55 Bud Hunt: Good evening, everybody.
21:32:57 fred_haas: @Susan - I am tapping Rheingold a lot for my new journalism course planning for the fall
21:33:04 Sara Beauchamp: s
21:33:17 SusanEttenheim: me too fred! let's share!
21:34:32 Troy Hicks: @ Bud - Hello there!
21:34:41 fred_haas: @Troy - Honestly, I am not sure there are that many. However I think the kids are more likely to get it faster almost as a byproduct of all the Facebook use
21:34:59 Bud Hunt: Howdy, Troy - What's new?
21:35:12 Dawn: I'm working with some high school journalism teachers in a few weeks. They want to use tools, like webcasting, blogs, etc. for a different sort of class. I saw the journalism conversation. I am interested in hearing some of your ideas sometime.
21:35:19 fred_haas: @Susan - I'll send you an email once I really get rolling.
21:35:35 brew7vwp: @dawn, do you read Will Richardson?
21:35:49 SusanEttenheim: great! dawn do you know harold rheingold's work?
21:35:56 Troy Hicks: @fred_haas Yes, I agree. I think that we could invite students to use their knowledge about interfaces similar to Facebook in order to set up their own interfaces for connecting and communication, researching and writing. This would help them think about when and how to write different digital texts.
21:36:10 SusanEttenheim: we can call you in if you have a comment or question or you can post it here!
21:36:18 roblyons: can someone share a rheingold link plz?
21:36:22 mahlness: Any thoughts on how Writers Workshop fits into all this? Other than just using a word processor to publish... Not a big fan of WW these days, but there is still a HUGE push in that direction...
21:36:29 SusanEttenheim: twitter hrheingold
21:36:49 Bud Hunt: @Mark - Why not a fan of writer's workshop? Too cookie cutter?
21:36:58 Dawn: Yes, I read Will Richardson. I'll check out Rheingold. Would you say there are any major differences that jump to your mind that journalism teachers should know about and use more than English teachers?
21:37:05 Troy Hicks: @ Bud - Howdy! We are in the midst of our first week at the Chippewa River Writing Project, so 15 new teachers are being introduced to wikis, Google Docs, and all other forms of great NWP philosophy and practices.
21:37:12 Dawn: I don't have a journalism background. I am showing them what I have done in English
21:37:17 SusanEttenheim: hi mike welcome!
21:37:22 mahlness: @Bud too little use of new media
21:37:22 fred_haas: @Dawn - You bet. Right now, I'm starting to construct the course around the question "What medium best tells the story?"
21:37:41 Bud Hunt: Congratuatlons, Director Hicks - I suspect it's a great week - but a busy one.
21:37:46 SusanEttenheim: welcome back roblyons
21:37:50 Bud Hunt: @Mark - In writer's workshop?
21:37:52 brew7vwp: I taught journalism with only an English background... I focused on compelling writing over anything else
21:38:08 roblyons: ths
21:38:09 roblyons: thx
21:38:36 mahlness: @Bud - yeah, WW is so 19th century
21:38:43 SusanEttenheim: lol jenny
21:39:09 Bud Hunt: @Mark - A good writer's workshop is as old as writing. But it's not at all dependant on a particular collection of tools.
21:39:22 brew7vwp: bad meaning bad or bad meaning good?
21:39:29 Paul Allison: Wow... Bryan gets around. CES too?
21:40:13 SusanEttenheim: hi noodles welcome!
21:40:14 Troy Hicks: @mahlness Not to be too much of a self-promoter, but I have a book coming out this fall that will address some of the issues of integrating digital writing and the writing workshop.
21:40:22 SusanEttenheim: welcome back boelhower
21:40:36 Paul Allison: Blowing up the WW!
21:40:43 SusanEttenheim: where and what do you teach if you haven't had a chance to introduce yourself yet>?
21:40:43 brcranda: I'm an opportunist blessed with wonderful experiences. I have had a lot invested in me, Paul. I feel very responsible to spread my luck.
21:40:45 mahlness: @Bud yeah, I get that, but elem writers workshop is all about Mead notebooks
21:40:49 Troy Hicks: I think that it requires us to hold on to the principles of the writing workshop, while figuring out critical and creative ways to help them engage with the technology.
21:41:01 fred_haas: On this inquiry idea, I was able to get more than few students recetnly to really extend themselves and seek out experts related their topic and correspond and ask questions. Some of them got some remarkable responses from college professors, television and radio stations, and more.
21:41:04 mahlness: @Troy - look forward to your entry
21:41:14 Paul Allison: How we edit, revise... when kids are publishing online is way different now.
21:41:27 SusanEttenheim: hi ahuntley welcome
21:41:42 Dawn: Hi Amy Huntley
21:41:51 mahlness: I believe the writing process is so different now - the steps are not the same anymore
21:42:12 fred_haas: They couldn't have done any of these things nearly as easily or successfully without the technology tools
21:42:16 Bud Hunt: Troy's book'll set you straight, Mark - but the first step of any good workshop is getting it down - who cares where they get it down?
21:42:25 mahlness: Looks do matter in writing now
21:42:40 brew7vwp: the model of "steps" is far too simplified and linear, even in light of Donald Murray and others
21:42:44 boelhower: I think the traditional essay is important, but technology adds a new aspect to what they can use to prove their points. For a persuasive essay I have them do a image/photo search around their thesis. Technology expands the different "points of references."
21:42:45 Troy Hicks: @ mahlness - Thanks. My hope is that we are thinking more about how to help students engage in different kinds of digital writing, but inviting them to think about audience, purpose, and situation for their writing.
21:43:04 Paul Allison: I think this also goes back to what we were saying earlier too. So much of what I encourage students to publish is "publish first, filter later"
21:43:05 roblyons: Hi I will be teaching a special ed freshman writing seminar (for the first time) this fall... I am a HS tech facilitator
21:43:21 mahlness: @Troy - sounds good
21:43:39 fred_haas: I think it is more about composition. That just seems like a better word now. It employs desing and synthesizing multiple parts, no?
21:43:49 SusanEttenheim: how interesting roblyons - what state?
21:44:02 SusanEttenheim: welcome sylvia! where and what do you teach?
21:44:10 Paul Allison: Is Kentucky still an interesting place to teach?
21:44:20 Troy Hicks: @ boelhower -- I would argue that there is no "writing process" in terms of steps any more. Never really was, but we need to abandon the "brainstorm, pre-write, draft, revise, edit, publish" as a lock step model just as much as we shun five paragraphs and six traits.
21:44:20 brew7vwp: @fred... that's the single most important idea in the book- multimodal composition
21:44:34 Troy Hicks: The steps have always been non-linear.
21:44:54 fred_haas: @brew - I am still making my way through it now
21:45:01 SusanEttenheim: yikes troy that's howi learned
21:45:07 brew7vwp: @troy, definitely... the steps become a crutch, just as 6 traits do
21:45:07 Troy Hicks: Technology helps make them even more non-linear and, indeed, recursive in ways that we have not been able to be with just texts, pencils, and paper.
21:45:29 Troy Hicks: @ Susan - sorry, not trying to offend!
21:45:40 mahlness: @Troy - do you have online stuff right now about how you feel about the writing process?
21:45:42 JuneChat: Yes, but students need to review and revise and even check spelling
21:45:44 Troy Hicks: Just think that we have classrooms that are now "structured" with the writing process
21:45:57 Troy Hicks: Brainstorming Monday through Final Draft Friday
21:46:01 Bud Hunt: @Troy - I think folks get stuck in "writing process" and "writing workshop" as easier to follow processes rather than ways of describing complex processes such as writing.
21:46:01 Troy Hicks: Yikes!
21:46:03 fred_haas: I suppose the composition idea is more of a riff on Bartholomae
21:46:10 Troy Hicks: That is not how writing works
21:46:14 ahuntley: The steps may ultimately be nonlinear in quite a few ways, but there are times to postpone one part of the process while focussing on another, and I think it's impotant to help kids learn to navigate the process of when to focus on what--and even when it's a good idea for there to be a free-for-all.
21:46:34 brcranda: I agree with Troy. writing process is a conglomeration of many process that may or may not lead to an actual finished piece. I would also add art and good ol' fashioning doodling into the steps we take with students to build their writing skills.
21:46:52 brew7vwp: nonlinear doesn't mean discard, it's more revise=constant rewriting... I used Nancy Sommers with my students to show what professional writers do in revision
21:47:18 SusanEttenheim: hi dbragg! welcome!
21:47:20 brcranda: write more, with options for editing later on.
21:47:29 Paul Allison: Are we ready to put publishing before polishing?
21:47:38 brew7vwp: @bryan, good point... "finished piece" is rare even for me
21:48:07 fred_haas: @Paul ready or not that is a lot of what is going on all over the place
21:48:11 roblyons: Susan NY. I have a SpEd background but have been out of the SpEd class for 13 years. Supt wants to see writing seminar become for "21st Century".
21:48:13 brew7vwp: @Paul, I am all or the leap- get your words out
21:48:20 brcranda: I don't think so. I think publishing is a last minute process. My lord...two years of writing this chapter and it is now what it is! Same with other pieces. Fiction is even worse. I can revisit a story a billion times and never feel it is edited the right way.
21:48:34 roblyons: I worry that the writing will become secondary to the technology...
21:48:41 Troy Hicks: @ mahlness: I have some thinking on digital writing on my blog: http://hickstro.org
21:48:49 Bud Hunt: @Paul - It's a good question - all publish without polish is hard to follow - but no publish is hard to follow, too.
21:49:01 ahuntley: A piece may always be improved. (Or almost always) but there is a time to put an end to the project, and that's another piece of what we need to teach kids. When to come to closure is not necessarily the same thing as when to come to perfection.
21:49:07 brew7vwp: writing won't be secondary when it is consitently practiced in all classes
21:49:50 Larry Neuburger: Did the writing accomplish its purpose? That's what I look at. Is it appropriate for the audience?
21:50:02 Troy Hicks: @ ahuntley I agree. We need to model all stages of the process for students. And direct them at times. But, freedom of choice and personal inquiry must be a part of writing instruction, too.
21:50:44 mahlness: How about teaching collaborative writing as a skill? Like how to be a good wiki author?
21:51:01 Troy Hicks: @ mahlness Yes, absolutely!
21:51:03 brcranda: that's the key. consistently practiced (brew). I don't see a lot of writing in the public schools I visit often..at least not the volume of writing I saw in Kentucky.
21:51:14 mahlness: @Troy - thanks for the link!
21:51:22 Paul Allison: While editing a published piece a student can also simultaneously get content feedback from peers.
21:51:24 brew7vwp: fear of writing
21:51:37 Troy Hicks: @ mahlness - Thanks for your interest in my work. I appreciate it!
21:51:43 DBragg: Isn't there less writing because it isn't on the state test?
21:51:43 ahuntley: Teaching COLLABORATION period is central to the way our society works, and it's seriously under taught in our current curriculum.
21:52:03 brcranda: I'm currently writing a collaborative project...two years worth. i wish I could say it is a positive experience, but it is a skill not everyone is good at. Like teaching technological skills, collaborative writing would depend on teaching a lot more people skills that aren't necessarily intrinsic to all writers.
21:52:05 DBragg: Not that I think the state tests are right
21:52:19 Bud Hunt: @dbragg - I'm not so sure there was all that much writing before current tests.
21:52:37 PeggyG: sorry I have to go--this has been a very stimulating conversation! I can't wait for my book to arrive! Thanks everyone!
21:52:38 brew7vwp: NY has writing on the state test... the straw man here is the dreaded "5-paragraphessay"
21:52:46 Bud Hunt: @brcranda - Um, if students were already good at it, why would you need to teach it?
21:52:51 brcranda: In New York, I keep rethinking Hillocks. The teachers teach to the test and that is it. Boom. It is not fun.
21:52:51 Paul Allison: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/books/teachingnewwriting
21:52:58 JuneChat: Who do you use as your models of wikis? Photostry3, etc?
21:53:02 DBragg: @bud true, but the tests aren't helping to focus on writing
21:53:05 fred_haas: @DBragg - There is a lot of writing on current state tests, it is just the kind of writing that can be problematic. It so limited.
21:53:07 JuneChat: especially for college students?
21:53:11 ahuntley: I find my students (in all things, not just writing) want to view collaboration of divvying up the work. It's very difficult to get them to look beyond that and let idea shaping happen together.
21:53:16 Paul Allison: Does anybody who has read the book have any general questions?
21:53:19 brcranda: Thanks, (Troy), I will need to read that piece.
21:53:43 Bud Hunt: @dbragg - Colorado actually has some good writing assessments embedded in its state test - but it's not translating to better writing instruction.
21:53:55 Bud Hunt: Strike that - to time spent writing and talking writing.
21:54:08 DBragg: There isn't much writing in the PA tests
21:54:22 Paul Allison: This I Believe is no longer on is it?
21:54:32 brcranda: Troy, I think I misread the chat room. We'll have to catch up on that conversation at another time.
21:54:32 brew7vwp: @bryan... Hillocks pegs it, but that Chapter One Dept of Ed quote is what I think of- the state test is the basement floor of what I want the students to be able to do
21:54:44 fred_haas: @Paul - stopped making new pieces about a month or so ago
21:55:34 Sara Beauchamp: Michigan is getting rid of (or redesigning) the writing part of the MME (Michigan Merit Exam) ultimately due to poor scores
21:55:55 Paul Allison: There's so much about genre and modeling here... that I want to learn more about.
21:56:37 brew7vwp: @troy, my students do that too- there's a desire to do it right
21:56:38 Troy Hicks: @ Paul Yes, it is. I think that it is on XM Public Radio now.
21:56:45 DBragg: The 9 WP sites in PA are collablorating with the Dept of Ed so I am hopeful some good writing instruction will follow
21:56:46 Troy Hicks: And on their website
21:57:05 Sara Beauchamp: The authentic audience is so key.
21:57:38 DBragg: @Sara Amen
21:58:23 Paul Allison: Audience, yes, but there's a carful unpacking -- reverse engineering -- of a from-- a specific NPR recording that can be analyzed
21:59:19 Dawn: I agree authentic audience is so key.
21:59:28 Paul Allison: Reminds me of the story we heard from Northern California -- about 3rd graders studying cooking shows.
21:59:53 Dawn: I also like the idea of reverse engineering recording concepts
22:00:03 mahlness: Thx much for the conversation, all - geat ideas! My third graders write at http://roomtwelve.com (just finished 4th year there)
22:00:48 SusanEttenheim: thanks mahlness for the link!
22:01:23 Paul Allison: When I worked with flash and poetry, I had students find digital poems, and we looked at how we could do something like that.
22:01:30 Larry Neuburger: Audience and purpose.
22:01:43 Sara Beauchamp: @Larry and longevity
22:01:51 Larry Neuburger: :)
22:02:08 Troy Hicks: @ brcranda - yes, let's catch up at another time, for sure!
22:02:38 Larry Neuburger: dang!
22:02:52 SusanEttenheim: we're trying to get her back!
22:02:58 Paul Allison: Audience, purpose, but there's something about craft in Dawn's classroom too.
22:03:23 Troy Hicks: @ brew7vwp - yes, the desire to "get it right" really drives a gret deal of people's willingness to work hard as digital writers. Spending hours and hours to get a narration to line up just right with the images in a digital story is not uncommon.
22:04:16 brcranda: Troy, I wish I was studying with you! I would learn a lot!
22:05:16 Troy Hicks: @ Sara Beauchamp - yes, what gets measured, gets treasured. Sadly, now that Michigan will not test writing at all grades I think that we will have even more worries about how writing is taught, if at all.
22:05:24 Troy Hicks: Sad, but true.
22:05:27 SusanEttenheim: nope trying to get dawn back.
22:05:48 Troy Hicks: If it is on the MEAP, people will teach it. But, I don't think that we will have nearly as much attention paid to writing now.
22:06:29 Troy Hicks: @ brcranda - Thank you much. We can continue to collaborate and learn from one another via blogging, twitter, and all our other personal learning network tools!
22:06:50 Bud Hunt: But there's still value in responding alone in the woods and then sharing that response later.
22:07:00 Troy Hicks: Dawn sends her thanks to everyone.
22:07:02 Larry Neuburger: Thanks for a great discussion!
22:07:16 Troy Hicks: She can not get back online, but thanks you all for the conversation.
22:07:26 fred_haas: Thanks. Another great one.
22:07:27 aaronyost77: This was my first experience here, and I enjoyed myself and learned a lot. I'll share the resource with the Yellowstone Writing Project tomorrow.
22:07:31 Sara Beauchamp: @Troy Hicks perhaps, yet with the integration of the digital tools, maybe many will still continue the focus
22:07:35 Bud Hunt: thanks, y'all, for devoting so much time to the book and its stories. Looking forward to the podcasts of the other sessions.
22:07:37 brew7vwp: thanks everyone- twitter.com/brew7vwp
22:07:47 Christina: yeah! great job everyone. great facilitating Kevin!
22:07:57 Troy Hicks: @ Sara - We can, indeed, hope so! Got any ideas about how to make that happen?
22:08:02 Larry Neuburger: Paul, keep sending the invitations on the TL listserve
22:08:29 SusanEttenheim: thanks everyone goodnight!
22:08:33 Sara Beauchamp: @ Troy :) a few.
22:08:41 Christina: bye all
22:08:43 DBragg: nght
22:08:54 Troy Hicks: @ Susan - thank you for facilitating!
22:09:05 Sara Beauchamp: Thanks all!