TTT#342 A Conversation with Will Richardson on Why School? Third in a series with NWP's Connected Learning Inquiry Group 3.27.13

On this episode of TTT join Will Richardson @willrich45 to discuss: With teachers and learning everywhere, why do we need schools? This is the third in a series of webcasts done in collaboration with the National Writing Project's Connected Learning Inquiry Group, which is led by Jennifer Woolven @mswollven and Joel Malley @joelmalley.

On this episode of TTT Paul Allison, Monika Hardy, and Chris Sloan are are joined by Jon Barilone, Jennifer Woollven, Will Richardson, Joel Malley, and Kim Douillard.

Paul Allison's profile photomonika hardy's profile photoChris Sloan's profile photoJon Barilone's profile photoJennifer Woollven's profile photoWill Richardson's profile photoJoel Malley's profile photoKim Douillard's profile photo

This is Will Richardson's About page at

A parent of two middle school aged children, I’ve been thinking and writing about the intersection of social online learning networks and education for the past 10 years at, in numerous journals and magazines such as Ed Leadership, Education Week and English Journal, and most recently I’m an outspoken advocate for change in schools and classrooms in the context of the diverse new learning opportunities that the Web and other technologies now offer.

A former public school educator for 22 years, I’m a co-founder of Powerful Learning Practice (, a unique professional development program that has mentored over 5,000 teachers worldwide in the last five years. My first book, Blogs, Wikis, Podcasts and Other Powerful Web Tools for Classrooms (Corwin Press, 3rd Edition 2010) has sold over 80,000 copies and has impacted classroom practice around the world. My second book, Personal Learning Networks: Using the Power of Connections to Transform Education, (Solution Tree) was released in May, 2011. And my third book, a collection of blog posts titled Learning on the Blog, was published in August of 2011 by Corwin Press.

Over the past six years, I’ve had the amazing opportunity to speak and work with to tens of thousands of educators in over a dozen countries about the merits of online learning networks for personal and professional growth. I’m proud to ba a national advisory board member of the George Lucas Education Foundation, and a regular columnist for District Administration Magazine.

When I’m not on the road, you can find me in rural New Jersey with my wife Wendy and my children Tess and Tucker

Read Why School? How Education Must Change When Learning and Information Are Everywhere, then enjoy this episode of Teachers Teaching Teachers.

Here's Amazon's Book Description of Why School? 10, 2012

Traditional educators, classrooms, and brick-and-mortar schools are no longer necessary to access information. Instead, things like blogs and wikis, as well as remote collaborations and an emphasis on 'critical thinking' skills are the coins of the realm in this new kingdom. Yet the national dialogue on education reform focuses on using technology to update the traditional education model, failing to reassess the fundamental design on which it is built.

In 'Why School?,' educator, author, parent and blogger Will Richardson challenges traditional thinking about education — questioning whether it still holds value in its current form. How can schools adjust to this new age? Or students? Or parents? In this provocative read, Richardson provides an in-depth look at how connected educators are beginning to change their classroom practice. Ultimately, 'Why School?' serves as a starting point for the important conversations around real school reforms that must ensue, offering a bold plan for rethinking how we teach our kids, and the consequences if we don't.

Click Read more to see the chat that was happening during this live webcast.


March 27, 2013

20:52Will Richardson: Hey...I need link to the hangout...
20:57Jon Barilone (Guest): Hi, everybody. :)
20:58chadsansing: Howdy, peeps -
20:58Joel: Hey folks
20:59Chris Sloan: Hi all
20:59chadsansing: Hi, Chris! Monitor us!
21:00Joe Dillon: Hi Everyone!
21:00Chris Sloan: I'll monitor you like Big Brother
21:00chadsansing: Heh.
21:01Paul Oh: Hi everyone
21:03chadsansing: ¡Hola, Paul!
21:03Christina: Hi guys!
21:03Paul Oh: hey chad
21:03Paul Oh: hey chris
21:04Christina: (What's the question? Just got here)
21:04Paul Oh: people don't often talk about the anchor that schools play in neighborhoods
21:04Paul Oh: the physical school, that is
21:04chadsansing: Hi, Christina :) What new value does school offer as a place where people are together?
21:05Christina: excellent, thanks Chad
21:05Peggy George: hi everyone! great to be here with all of you!
21:06chadsansing: It's been interesting to watch my kids at school shift culturally from playing Minecraft to making stuff with it to making material stuff.
21:07chadsansing: Hello, Peggy!
21:07Paul Oh: Hi Peggy
21:07Peggy George: hi chad and Paul :-) nice to have company in this chat room. It can get very lonely. :-)
21:07Joe Dillon: I think the concept of community is in important one to keep in mind, where we're talking about the classroom community, or a school's role as a community hub.
21:07Kaylin Burleson: Kaylin. Glad to listen and learn
21:08Jordan: Hey all. Jordan here.
21:08Chris Sloan: Yes, the community thing is big for me
21:08Paul Oh: Hi Jordan
21:08chadsansing: I like the idea of building trusting, needs-fulfilling communities at school.
21:08Joel: That's cool Chad. I hope to help my sons make that shift too. I want my kids to be makers. Going to continue that in our garden this summer.
21:08Christina: I think the school as a hub of community if also an important question ...
21:09Christina: in what ways can it be more than school and really be a community place?
21:09chadsansing: Hello, Kaylin and Jordan (and Joe and Joel and everyone)!
21:09Joel: That's a good question Joe. I think schools need to actually make that happen. Schools, as I see them, are too exclusive and not the community hub they could be. At least some...
21:09Peggy George: there was a great point made in the Finnish system webinar today where it was said "our goal isn't to become #1 but to reach all learners" (possibly a paraphrase) :-)
21:10chadsansing: @Joel: permission to play was really important at first; not sure the rest would have emerged w/o embracing & trusting play.
21:10Paul Oh: I would also say that the degree to which a school is a community hub is not totally known until the school is removed
21:10Paul Oh: as we've seen as schools are closed in cities around the country
21:10Jon Barilone (Guest): Story on Monika's 'innovationlab' in Colorado:
21:10Chris Sloan: @Joel agreed. I think schools are often isolated from neighborhoods
21:11chadsansing: How do schools work towards the communities their kids' need?
21:11Christina: I mentioned it Paul because before the closuresi in Philly there were a ton of community proposals that were submitted to reconsider the role of the school in the community ...
21:11Christina: ... sadly, most not considered. But clearly, it is possible to rethink the whole thing.
21:11Tom McKenna: I think this is a really important point... ways to gauge learning culture of schools, and learning capacity/habits of students
21:12Christina: Hi Tom! :)
21:12Peggy George: very interesting tweetchat during the Finnish webinar hosted by Edutopia and Joe Mazza:
21:12Tom McKenna: Hi hi
21:12Peggy George: they talked a lot about these points we're discussing right now :-)
21:12Peggy George: Hi Tom
21:12Paul Oh: Hey Tom
21:12Joe Dillon: @Paul I agree that there is a lot to reform in schools a lot to question, I personally like to find all the things worth keeping, amplifying and building on in schools now.
21:13Chris Sloan: difference between "how to learn" versus "what to learn" Nice distinction
21:13Tom McKenna: Joe, I like your perspective... inventorying what's essential to keep.
21:13Christina: I also worry about the folks moving into the spaces ... many not so interested in building democratic spaces I'm afraid.
21:14Paul Oh: @Tom @Joe Yes, I like that perspective, too
21:14chadsansing: How do we identify the Minecraft-block of schooling? Is it the teacher-level? The student? The classroom? The school, division, or policy? What's the atom?
21:15Tom McKenna: I think policy makers WILL listen to students who advocate for the kind of change being talked about now
21:15Jon Barilone (Guest): Speaking of Chris Lehmann, there's an open chat with him tomorrow from 10-11am PT:
21:15Christina: yes, wonder about the role of student voice here too.
21:15Christina: and the power of that in the change itself.
21:16Peggy George: Thanks Jon!
21:16chadsansing: There's a difference in trying to teach kids how to learn and allowing kids to learn independently, to ask for help when it occurs to them to do so.
21:16Chris Sloan: we've got room for two more in the Hangout if anybody's interested
21:17Joe Dillon: @Chad I have noticed recently that I play with my 7 year old daughter in Minecraft and I collaborate with my boss in Minecraft. What are the qualities that make it a great learning space
21:18Jon Barilone (Guest): That "pressure" seemed very evident at SXSWedu the past 2 years. Essentially felt like an ed tech trade show...
21:18chadsansing: Content & assessment are narratives to be resisted :)
21:18Christina: Tom, why don't you join? It woudl be great to have more folks who work with younger kids!
21:18Paul Oh: Yes, Jon, I think the influx of money that Will talks about is a huge pressure.
21:18Christina: And, you haven't been on before, right? ... no pressure :)
21:21chadsansing: @Joe: sorry, got booted. I think the game manages to show you the impact of your actions immediately.
21:22chadsansing: @Joe: it also has a discovery/wonder spiral as you find out what else you can do, and the devs gift back frequent updates.
21:23Paul Oh: i wonder also to what extent we need to emphasize a sense of community and civic engagement as part of self-directed, interest-driven learning
21:23Peggy George: @Joe I was in a great MinecraftEDU webinar this week with Australian educators and Stephen Elford did a great job of demonstrating/explaing the learning his students are able to do in MinecraftEDU.
21:23chadsansing: @Joe: and it's a portal to modding graphics and code and programming. It's a pathway to other computational competencies. Rare gem.
21:23Christina: What would community schools look like? I think we need to imagine that together ...
21:23chadsansing: @Peggy: how did Stephen use the teacher tools?
21:23Paul Oh: not just to have voice, but to understand systems and power dynamics and their role in being able to make change
21:23Jon Barilone (Guest): A couple student-led orgs working on ed reform: &
21:23Christina: ... they can be open for things other than youth in the evening and weekends, for example ...
21:23Joe Dillon: @chad - Nice. One of my hopes is that virtual spaces like Minecraft show how LMS-like spaces are too restrictive. Similarly, I'm hopeful that a concept like badging ends up showing how limiting standardized testing is.
21:24Tom McKenna: Sorry. I got kicked off of Etherpad. Back for a bit.
21:25chadsansing: @Christina: one of my local mentors and I have a bunch of thinking documented somewhere on school as hub for school-as-city & interest-driven classes & studio spaces open all day.
21:25Paul Oh: @Joe that would be a great product of badging
21:25Paul Oh: @tom i think we all got kicked off :)
21:25Peggy George: the big theme in the Finnish webcast today was about trust--for students, teachers, parents, administrators. Students felt valued and important.
21:25Christina: yes, I did some work like that when I was an undergrad ... we were supporting a local school in Philly to creat this kind of space ...
21:25chadsansing: @Joe: just keep the badges away from the test vendors.
21:25Christina: ... there are models out there, learning ...
21:25Joe Dillon: @Paul It seems like badging leads more directly to reflection and celebration...
21:26Christina: ... can you share what you have too?
21:26chadsansing: @Christina: we should trade docs sometime. A dead drop. The drain pipe outside Sabrina's.
21:26Paul Oh: @Peggy trust cannot be overemphasized, imo
21:26Peggy George: @Tom that happened to me too! booted out of Titanpad!
21:26Peggy George: I agree Paul!
21:26chadsansing: Will, do we need curricula anymore?
21:27Paul Oh: @Joe I think badging used as part of a portfolio system would do just that
21:27Paul Oh: @Chad I think we'll need curricula
21:27Christina: @chad excellent. secret password is berry cream coffee muffin.
21:27Paul Oh: a different kind of curricula
21:27Peggy George: that's such a sad state of affairs!! teachers evaluated 50% based on test scores!
21:27chadsansing: No! Not the "not mutually exclusive" argument - forget the tests. Abstractions. Portfolios of work that works. Let's go!
21:28Chris Sloan: Tom, join the Hangout, but wear some earbuds please. Then there's no echo
21:28chadsansing: @Christina: got it.
21:28Christina: curriculum like Youth Voice. Paul Allison says it is his curriculum, for example.
21:28Christina: @chad okay, shhhh. dont' let anyone know.
21:28chadsansing: @Paul: tell me more...
21:28Joe Dillon: In regards to the 50% eval stuff. I think veteran teachers interested in reform and amplifying learning probably don't have as much to worry about as we sometimes think.
21:28Tom McKenna: Folks, I'm not going to be able to jump on to the hangout, so please do if you're inclined.
21:29Paul Oh: well, i think there's a rub between what kids want to know and what we as adults have some understanding of what will help kids navigate their own learning
21:29chadsansing: Re: curricula; why not abandon it, better define how learning works rhizomatically, & not risk the schoolification of it?
21:29Christina: Hey Joe, how about you? working across schools etc would be interesting here.
21:30Peggy George: @Joe they probably don't have to "worry" about it but it's meaningless data for the most part that doesn't really help them focus on improving their own practice.
21:30chadsansing: @Paul, isn't that teaching or mentorship? I'm just trying to tease/pry some stuff apart as I reflect on class this year.
21:30Paul Oh: i think there's a place for non-rhyzomatic teaching/learning
21:30Christina: curriculum-in-the-making I've been saying to describe the rhizome ...
21:30Paul Oh: @chad sure, i understand
21:30Christina: not sure it really works.
21:30Paul Oh: so i think about work i see in the Oakland Unified School District
21:30Paul Oh: related to civic engagement
21:31Christina: I love how Kim calls them "little guys" :)
21:31Peggy George: :-) Christina
21:31Will Richardson: One-room schoolhouse.
21:31Peggy George: exactly Will!
21:31chadsansing: @Paul: I think what I mean is something like this: teach civic engagement, don't teach the civic engagement curriculum.
21:31Christina: I think this grade level thing is interesting ...
21:32Paul Oh: @chad yes, i can get behind that
21:32Peggy George: I always loved teaching in multi-age classrooms!
21:32Christina: seperation around age always felt artificial to me at that age too!
21:32Jordan: I was in a multi-age classroom in grade school.
21:33Paul Oh: as i've said to @christina many times, I believe the make movement today has nothing on constructivist second grade teachers
21:33Christina: Hi Jordan! What grades
21:33Paul Oh: hey Jordan!
21:33Jordan: 3/4 and 5/6
21:33Jordan: It was a great experience.
21:33Tom McKenna: This year I'm teaching 3rd and 4th grade, and I have a couple of my younger students who are fearless with learning through digital resources; they don't even seem to know they are innovating!
21:33Christina: yes, let's let the constructivist second grade teachers lead us! revolution.
21:33Joe Dillon: I'm okay with Youth Voices being the curriculum. I'm also ok with 4-8 big questions a year being the curriculum.
21:33Christina: Tom, from 3/4 can help lead too.
21:33Paul Oh: @Joe nicely put
21:33Peggy George: way back in the late 70's I was in a very progressive school where students were allowed to enter school on their birthday regardless of when it fell in the year. All students didn't enter on the first day of school. Forces individualizing and differentiating :-)
21:34Jordan: Especially as someone who has always felt more comfortable with an older age group, and was considered a "gifted" student, definitely helped keep me engaged.
21:34Jordan: I found that I got bored and didn't feel as comfortable when I was in classrooms with just my own grade.
21:35Peggy George: really interesting points @Jordan!
21:35chadsansing: Invite kids to put materiality and intent between them & the screens: MaKey MaKey, Raspberry Pi, coding, custom cardboard cases. Make the computer an object.
21:35Chris Sloan: join us Chad
21:35chadsansing: Or the phone or whatever. Make a refrigerator-sized controller for Temple Run. Go!
21:36Peggy George: just read an article about screen time on an early childhood list that made exactly that point--it's what they're doing with that time
21:36chadsansing: @Chris: thank you, duder, but I am not able to jump in all vocal-like tonight.
21:36Tom McKenna: Folks, thanks for allowing me to eavesdrop; I need to go deliver my kids here and there. Will try to listen as I drive. Hate to leave at this moment!
21:36Christina: I need someone to curate a resource about early literacy learning for Digital Is ...
21:37Christina: any takers? I could also ask Kim.
21:37Christina: I'm sorry ... I need a collection curated (ie. 5 resources)
21:37Joe Dillon: I agree with Kim that the screen is a constructive space when my 3 year old is taking photos. When she's watching cartoons, it is different.
21:37Chris Sloan: @Chad: you could mime
21:37chadsansing: I struggle with cutting off stuff my kids learn from, even when it's screen mediated. The Netflix and Annoying Orange I can deal with balancing out.
21:37Paul Oh: I would like to see a miming chad
21:37chadsansing: @Chris, I mime while I write all the time - like an Air Bender!
21:37Jordan: Ditto, Paul.
21:38Christina: refrigerator controller for Temple Run! ... you are crazy @chadsansing :)
21:38chadsansing: @Paul: just watch me blog; I start doing wizard moves with my hand to reflect inflection, syntax, & paragraph order -
21:38Paul Oh: @chad while wearing a french beret, no doubt
21:38chadsansing: @Christina: make the screens part of something kid-made.
21:38Peggy George: love those points--tought conversations about how much tech is too much :-)
21:38chadsansing: Don't call Bud an admin! No! (Admins, I love you.)
21:39chadsansing: @Paul: wizard hat/beret mash-up.
21:39Joe Dillon: I like when Bud says "Design for platforms, not apps."
21:40Paul Oh: I prefer "design for people"
21:40chadsansing: Andrew Carle (@tieandjeans) & I have a webcast waiting in the wings: about 45 minutes of my kids riffing on what makes our project-based learning class and classroom space work. Watch for the drop.
21:40Peggy George: thanks chad! would love to hear that!
21:41Joe Dillon: @Paul People- that's probably best...
21:41chadsansing: @Peggy: some kids I've had in social studies and language arts for a combined 3-years chime in, as well - good stuff. Wise kids.
21:41Peggy George: awesome!
21:41Paul Oh: in our Oakland work, we've settled on the idea of having as a goal helping youth become community ready
21:41Christina: I prefer supporting teachers as learners ... but not getting them up to speed ... I think that triggers imagines of training, which I think is the opposite of what we are talking about. ... just a little note, I realize.
21:41Paul Oh: i think if that's the goal, then what you do - with technology, or without - will follow
21:41chadsansing: @Paul: I dig that phrase. Are you posting a bunch on this at dComposing?
21:42Paul Oh: i've got a post brewing, my friend
21:42Peggy George: I totally agree with that point about the teacher being comfortable with Minecraft before they provide it as a learning tool for students!!
21:42chadsansing: @Paul: sweet.
21:42Christina: yes, the community ready stuff is brilliant! I told @poh that today -- very exciting.
21:42Chris Sloan: @ Christina and a complicating factor is that the tech is popping up in many students pockets, and we've got to be ready to handle it as it comes
21:42chadsansing: @Will, but there's a difference between the disposition to be comfortable and knowing a bunch. Starting as a learner, not an expert, is okay, right?
21:42Christina: yes, I was wondering about the pace too@Chris ...
21:43Chris Sloan: I don't think there's time to wait for teachers to spend two years working with tablets before they introduce it to the kids
21:43Christina: @Chris agree ... not possible anymore.
21:43chadsansing: @Chris: that's why I endorse a 23-month plan for all tablet adoption.
21:43Chris Sloan: nice Chad
21:43Christina: @chris we should start to document new ways of doing this ...
21:43chadsansing: (mimes tapping motions)
21:43Chris Sloan: glad you're ahead of the curve
21:44Joe Dillon: Do we put the same threshold on Learning Management Systems that we would on Minecraft? No questions ask if you just want to have kids turn in a paper or take a quiz.
21:44Christina: It's disruptive on many levels ...
21:45chadsansing: @Joe: I am increasingly convinced that making stuff with kids is _the_ pedagogical protest act of our time.
21:45Christina: ... the market around them are disruptive ... it's not just hte technology.
21:45Christina: the market is chewing up the schools in Philadelphia!
21:45chadsansing: I would like to help more folks ask to compete with products.
21:45Christina: this is a hugely disruptive time!
21:45chadsansing: You know, to create cover for doing better work.
21:45Paul Oh: teachers as tinkerers
21:46Paul Oh: i've told paul allison that i think he's the ultimate teacher tinkerer
21:46Joe Dillon: @chad If it is not a protest, it is probably a shortcut to a constructive teacher-student relationship. It isn't that different from writing with kids.
21:46Paul Oh: i like that distinction - productivity vs connectivity
21:47chadsansing: @Joe: right; I like to situate writing right next to coding, making, painting, composing of any sort.
21:47Christina: The world is shifting around us Ireally think so we need to reimagine how we relate to each other ... how do we really be a democracy in this new age? (not the we figured it out in the old, but anyway ....)
21:48Paul Oh: @Joe @Chad What is the equivalent of "sharing the pen" today?
21:48chadsansing: @Christina: check the new Rushkoff book, but borrow it; Pearson published it :(
21:48Christina: the production/making aspect ... I agree iwth @chad
21:49chadsansing: @Joe @Paul: pass me the hot glue and cardboard!
21:49Christina: RT: chadsansing: @Joe: I am increasingly convinced that making stuff with kids is _the_ pedagogical protest act of our time.
21:50chadsansing: DIY is politics.
21:50Christina: @chad grab the stable pliers, with sword, and you'll be set!
21:50Joe Dillon: @Paul There is some guaranteed magic in putting multiple kids in the same Google Doc. "We're writing together!"
21:50Christina: Almost??!!!
21:50chadsansing: Thanks, @Will! I owe most of it to the kind support of folks here :)
21:50chadsansing: The cardboard I source locally.
21:51Christina: yes -- Paul Allison asks the worlds best questions.
21:52Christina: I nominate Paul Allison for a best question-asker badge.
21:52chadsansing: Remember the lesson of Walk Out, Walk On - the big system, and many schools, will never change, but people in classroom communities can do hospice work and network - rhizomes growing up from the fallen log of schooling.
21:52Peggy George: :-)
21:52Paul Oh: @joe agreed. i think also that the equivalent to today's sharing the pen is also allowing kids to be placed in positions of teaching, and teachers putting themselves in place of learner
21:53Joe Dillon: @Paul Sharing the "teaching spot" in the room is a fun experiment.
21:54chadsansing: We gotta invite youth programming allies into the classroom - muh bridgez.
21:54Paul Oh: @chad yes, that's huge
21:54chadsansing: Thank you, Jon!
21:55Jon Barilone (Guest): Video Monika just referenced =
21:55Paul Oh: great point, monika - school as just one node in learning
21:55chadsansing: @Paul: Kim & Teen Tech Girls rock; Kim has really brought many of my kids into more engagement with what they are learning.
21:55Paul Oh: network
21:55Paul Oh: @chad we're doing work in oakland with a group that focuses on community mapping
21:56Peggy George: it's learning that isn't necessarily based in a facility--4 walls
21:56chadsansing: Dean Groom (@vormamim) wrote an interesting post on touch-points. To defeat the shallow vision of the "connected educator," we have to embrace allies' interests & let our work intersect.
21:56Paul Oh: so that kids have an opportunity to document where they live, consider making changes
21:56chadsansing: @Paul: awesome; did you see Map Story? Do you know Neatline?
21:57Paul Oh: @chad no. links?
21:57Chris Sloan: @chad I'm seeing some promising connections between my students and professional media. We both need each other
21:57Joe Dillon: I hope chad is fetching a link!
21:57chadsansing: @Chris - very cool. How do your kids & the media's ideas of narrative compare and contrast?
21:58Chris Sloan: students as consumers and producers with pro media
21:58Christina: I appreciate the way Monika described that.
21:58Paul Oh: cool, thanks @chad
21:58Chris Sloan: for one, they're fully capable of joining in on the story
21:58chadsansing: Dean Groom is a force. Compelling bloke.
21:58Chris Sloan: whatever story is unfolding
21:59Joe Dillon: @chad Nice!
21:59Chris Sloan: I'm thinking of the KQED stuff Paul
21:59Paul Oh: It's good to hear your optimistic vision, @will
21:59Jon Barilone (Guest): Always a need for more sharing and stories (especially if we can demonstrate how youth are benefitting from alternate practices/environments)!
21:59Peggy George: don't forget about the full day School Leadership Summit tomorrow co-hosted by Steve Hargadon & TICAL-awesome presenters and all free!
21:59chadsansing: @Chris - that sounds like a great partnership. I'll plug Rushkoff's book again as a must-borrow.
21:59Christina: @chad Oh, very helpful. thank you! Just in time, actually.
21:59Paul Oh: @chris - yes, the KQED work has great potential
21:59Chris Sloan: and some of my students who were media people for political campaigns last fall
22:00Paul Oh: thanks, @peggy
22:00Peggy George: independence makes it much easier!
22:00chadsansing: @Christina: that's my gig: just-in-time teaching amongst kids at work on making to learn.
22:00Peggy George: teachers are afraid of losing their jobs if they speak out
22:00Chris Sloan: @chad which Rushkoff book?
22:00chadsansing: Thank you, Peggy!
22:00chadsansing: @Chris - new one: Present Shock.
22:01Chris Sloan: got it
22:01Christina: @chad yup!
22:01Paul Oh: i also think the decline of unions, of organizing, exacerbates the problem
22:01chadsansing: @Paul:let's discuss that one over dinner.
22:01Paul Oh: @chad would love to
22:02Peggy George: thank you Will and everyone for this great conversation!
22:02Paul Oh: yes, thanks will and all the guests on air in the chat room
22:02chadsansing: @Paul: we can pick a day and order each other pizza from coast to coast :)
22:02Paul Oh: grat conversation
22:02Paul Oh: @chad you're on, dude
22:02chadsansing: Thank you all for a great show and conversation!
22:02Peggy George: awesome Paul!! that sounds like a great session!
22:03Paul Oh: good night!
22:03Chris Sloan: thanks all
22:03chadsansing: @Chris - thanks, Big Brother!
22:03Peggy George: good night all!
22:03Christina: Good night!
22:03Joe Dillon: Goodnight everyone. Thanks for a lively chat!
22:03chadsansing: Good-night!