Jeff: Hello, and welcome to EdTechTalk's Continuing discussion of Dave Cormiers
Jeff: learning in a time of abundance this week.
Jeff: Chapter 3.
Jeff: How abundance is a problem for learning.
Jeff: Dave covers everything from
Jeff: melting temperature of lead to book binding, sources of truth, Danish castles, poorly cooked Brussels, sprouts, and bulletproof pancakes. I am Jeff Lebo in Poussin Korea.
Jen: My name is Jennifer Mandel, and I'm in Chicago, Illinois.
John: This is John Shinker in Stow, Ohio.
Dave: And I'm Dave Cormier in Windsor, Ontario.
Jeff: And we want to apologize to all the viewers and listeners who tuned in at the regular time last week, and this week we've had some schedule shifting but we are glad to be back after a very mini hiatus to continue.
John: They're a very patient bunch, Jeff, super accommodating. And we really appreciate that.
Jen: But hours each, and.
Dave: He complains.
Jen: No no complaints, no understanding.
Jeff: Alright, Jen! Take us away!
Jen: As you say, that that this poses a problem for us because our notes were prepared. What a a week ago or so so it's like, what are we talking about with what's going on? So with that, I'll probably just turn it right over to Dave to help us introduce the the topic. But we did talk a little bit about this in general. Terms, a a week or so ago, 10 days ago or so, or whatever it was.
Jen: And this idea of abundance of information. And so really, with this chapter from my take, is talking about the real world implications of this information abundance.
Jen: And so when, if you wouldn't mind kicking us off, Dave, talking to us about how an abundance of information results in kind of a lack of appreciation for nuance and increases uncertainty.
Dave: Sure I'll take the uncertainty first.st I think one of the things that information abundance has done for us is, I,
Dave: I would suspect.
Dave: shown us the uncertainty and the things that we already thought we knew. So in the before times.
Dave: let's call them before the Internet.
Dave: information was hard to come by was scarce, something you had to go out and find.
Dave: and it was very. It was way more convenient to put it into. I don't know what I call it a book. Those old fashioned things people don't do anymore.
Dave: and sort of capture it into one piece. And you'd have that one thing that you would teach somebody.
Dave: and you'd have that person remember it because it was more useful for them to be able to remember and hold onto one thing than it was to try to grasp the nuance when you weren't didn't have access to it.
Dave: whereas now any given thing that comes up.
Dave: I can get 37 opinions right away. Right? I get all the different pieces, and I'm not trained to handle that.
Dave: I'm trained to find the right answer to my question, and then go on about making decisions with the right answer. So all of that information leads to us, understanding how uncertain a lot of the decisions people make actually are.
Dave: Should we take a simple example, like.
Dave: what is the best food to eat?
Dave: You can inherit? Actually, I'll give you an example from today.
Dave: Don't! Iron taffeta
Dave: is the wisdom that Bonnie inherited from her mother.
Dave: So we were coming downstairs. We had this material of unknown origin
Dave: that we have to get ready for the Prom tomorrow.
Dave: and so don't. Iron cafetera is the inherited wisdom we have.
Dave: and then Ren and I are both on our phones, doing random searches to try to both identify the material, and then also decide what we can do about it. And so we have like 17 different ideas about how we can actually
Dave: address this piece of material.
Dave: So in one case you've got the, here's the rule, and you just follow it because you don't really understand the rule. All you can do is kind of go with it. And in the other case you've got so many different sort of details that
Dave: let's try not to burn the cloth, and we'll do our best. But you know there's the let's hang it outside and put it in the thing and do this other thing with it. It's it's overwhelming, right? So you you can see that
Dave: uncertainty in every single decision.
Dave: And that's what abundance gives us.
Jeff: Yet you made a decision. What is the status of the taffeta.
Dave: Well, it's not taffeta. I don't think.
Dave: I'm pretty sure that taffeta is not something that really happens anymore.
Dave: It's a material from the fifties or sixties that involved some magical combination of lica and a variety of other things. Or if the Internet again.
John: Lead asbestos, those things.
Dave: Did. I need to know this? I did not. But you can't help it. You don't just get the information. You want to get all of it.
Dave: So you know the then the history of Lic comes up, and then there's a conversation about whether or not that matches modern materials. All the while. The skirt is not getting ironed.
Dave: Right? So and this is this is the sort of implications of abundance. And I think that when we talk about learning. We tend to talk about these really formal structures and new kids these days do change. But to me the really interesting conversation. And and really what the book is about is, how does the pack impact us on a daily basis? And we had this, this explosion today.
Dave: around whatever that material is. But it is iron now.
Dave: I have not looked at it closely, because I don't really want to know. It's gonna get worn anyway, and it's tomorrow. So we have no choice in the matter.
Dave: So it looks like it's not as wrinkled.
Jen: They do?
Dave: We're gonna go with that.
Jen: Well.
Dave: The question, does that give you the.
Jen: It does, it does. And I'm gonna skip ahead. I don't even know if I have this in my notes, but I think it ties back to something we talked about a couple of weeks ago. Is this idea of persistence? Because in inherent. And everything you just said you have to wanna stick with it to get your answer. And this does kind of lead into maybe a a segue into the next things I wanted to talk about this idea of well, that sounds overwhelming. So you know what? I'm just gonna iron it. And if it doesn't work.
Jen: then we're gonna pick up another different kind of problem. So you know you can. You can extend that through to think about schools with people learning and the persistence and challenges folks face, face, face, face, face, face, face. Now to get these right answers or the answers that will help solve a problem. So you know, how does that all play in with with learning and education.
Dave: So I would argue the shortcuts again. I'm using random dates. Well, I'll keep using random ones. 40 years ago the shortcuts were made before they got to me.
Dave: So somebody went taff it up
Dave: and said, Don't iron it
Dave: without all the nuances that some professional at the time would have understood those things happened before they came to me, whereas now I have access to all of that nuance.
Dave: I may not understand it. I probably will not understand it.
Dave: But then I'm stuck making a decision. So like you say.
Dave: close your ears and just pick
Dave: or leave it on the ground and go have a beer because I can't.
Dave: or whatever right? And so I think that when you look at the kinds of anxieties that people talk about, and the sort of people's unwillingness to have a discussion. I think a discussion right now is exhausting like suddenly, if you're gonna bring something that I can
Dave: comfortably not have to think about. If you're bringing it into question, you've done another one of those things that I'm now stuck trying to figure out.
Dave: and I think
Dave: I don't think it's a coincidence at all that we've been increasing sort of factionalism at the same time that abundance has come along
Dave: like it's so much easier to not have to think about it.
John: We're also I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Dave: But please.
John: Do you think we're also less likely to just accept the conventional wisdom that we've been told.
John: you know. Are we more likely to say I've been told that I don't iron this, but
John: I'm not sure that I believe that, or that that's still relevant, or, you know, does does the meat really have to be cooked to this temperature.
Jeff: Does someone really have to stick around to answer questions? Or can they just leave the conversation.
Jen: Maybe we're gonna get it.
John: Hold that thought. He's gonna oh.
Jeff: Did they get your but.
John: Focus. But I have seen that book, so I know what it is.
Dave: So this.
Jeff: This is.
Dave: Book of household management. It's actually referred to in the in the book.
Dave: This, in 1861
Dave: had the answer to every household question. You could possibly want to ask
Dave: whether it be headaches or
Dave: how you wanted to make a dumpling, dumpling, using just the my right amount of animal fats, or whatever it was.
Dave: all in here. It's a gigantic book.
Dave: and it has pictures and
Dave: advice, and how to be a good wife, and like everything. It's all in here.
Dave: So yeah, I think
Dave: you had that, and you checked it.
Dave: And then after that
Dave: we can do.
Dave: whereas now I think at any time anybody says a thing.
Dave: One of the positions that people take up is yeah, whatever.
Dave: because I know I can find somebody else who will tell me the thing I already want to believe.
Dave: because that's the other thing about abundance, right like, regardless of what it is you wish to believe. You can find somebody who will support it.
John: I have grapes in my backyard, and
John: they're cuttings from my great-grandfather's grapes, and I was taught as I was growing up, and for the last
John: 40 years.
John: You prune the grapes in February.
John: and then you let them go for the year. And like 3 years ago, I had a problem with with a pest that was boring into the grapes, and the way to fix it is you cut that part out and you burn it.
John: So I did that.
John: and I got more grapes.
John: so I now prune them in February and June, because I get more grapes that way, and my grandfather can't complain because he's dead.
John: I didn't look that up anywhere.
John: I didn't ever. It never occurred to me to question that wisdom. This is what you do.
John: and but
John: you know we're reaching that age where we ask those questions.
Jeff: Which is a positive flip side to all this, you know. Now we can get more grapes, and whether someone's like
Jeff: making uninformed opinions or overinformed or selectively informed.
Jeff: There is more out there which has the potential for good. It just seems like a modern literacy or skill is is the filtering and different people are going to come to different
Jeff: answers. But there are positive potentials in all this. Yes.
Dave: Absolutely, definitely.
Dave: But this is not the positive potential chapter you're skipping ahead, John.
Jeff: I'm concerned. Then I'm concerned about this.
Jen: Yeah. It so goes against your nature, too, to spend a whole chapter on concerning things
Jen: painful.
Dave: Yeah, I think. And I mean, it's funny. You say that, too, because the and we've talked about this before. But I moved the chapters around like 17 times.
Dave: and that like holding the negativity is not my normal space either.
Dave: That's John's business, and I
Dave: but the the whole commitment to writing this book was to try to actually have it as a long form. Conversation like, have it long enough that somebody who has not come across this
Dave: conversation before, can actually sort of work through
Dave: the weird stories and and sort of get a sense of what I'm trying to say.
Jen: Okay, here I am going back to the negative. Maybe it is good that I'm kind of leaving this conversation. But I did pull up a a quote that, I think, is appropriate, for we're talking about it's on page 59 for those that are
Jen: following along. That lacking knowledge to maintain uncertainty, we default to certainty, and that kind of gets back to our thing about persistence. It's like, it's just easier, you know. Let's let's even if we're not right, let's just let's just do something. And so you had an example. I don't know. Do you recall your example in the book, your snl skid, example.
Dave: Oh, the should I chime in on this.
Jen: Yeah, yeah, please.
Dave: Oh, that's.
John: Oh no!
Dave: So it's a game show
Dave: in the 2015, maybe
Dave: and all you have to do to win the game show is, say no.
Dave: and the way the game show goes is they present a
Dave: a topical issue that is deep and profound, and is probably something that you need to be contextually understanding of that situation, to be able to make comment about.
Dave: And the question of the game show and the name of the game show is, should I chime in on this? And inevitably the game show host goes. Should you chime in on this? And if you say No, you win.
Dave: and inevitably. Nobody can say no.
Dave: because everybody feels that once the questions been asked of them.
Dave: there's some belief that you should have an answer
Dave: right, and that
Dave: again
Dave: 70 years ago. I'll keep using different numbers.
Dave: There were only so many of those topics to be asked about.
Dave: and one of the things that's also increased abundantly is the number of things that we're expected to have an opinion upon
Dave: and increasingly
Dave: different all the time.
Dave: Right? So if you look at
Dave: a friend of mine does.
Dave: Chinese Middle Eastern relations.
Dave: That topic is fairly obscure, and it's right. But if somebody asks people about it, they're gonna be like, oh, I think that's bad.
Dave: and we've tried it like it ends up working out that way. People just feel the need to say something about it?
Dave: But for the things that are coming up every day that are, that that change through it. So if you look at, I was at a session 3 h session today and looking at removing barriers for trans kids in
Dave: as K 12 teachers here in Canada.
Dave: And
Dave: that's a topic that the people in the room were struggling with
Dave: because they had done their training like 4 years ago.
Dave: and the language has changed since then.
Dave: and the expectations are different than they were 4 years ago.
Dave: and they're wanting to have the opinion they had 4 years ago, and they want it. And there's nothing wrong with that, like, I totally understand where they're coming from, because they want to be settled on an issue.
Dave: and then give their opinion on that issue and not have to leave that space
Dave: because it's hard to hold open that space of nuance.
Dave: For
Dave: you know, 1,400 issues.
Jen: And I think also this ties back to again bringing in some of the things we talked before. Especially when you're
Jen: you trying to either. Hold yourself to some level of expertise. Being being comfortable, saying, I don't know we need. This is something I need to look into. I think we used example examples of going to a doctor, and I think again tying it back to education. There is this
Jen: perception historically, but the teacher has the answer. And so
Jen: this there, you know, there shouldn't be struggle at the teacher level, right like if I ask the teacher a question that there should be an answer, and so I think it could for me. Anyway, a lot of this come, I keep using the word persistence and getting folks comfortable with decision making and the uncertainty that comes with the decision making and all the things that you described. Like the literacies associated with finding information, those types of things, I think, from for educators that's going to be our biggest challenge.
Jeff: Just to add on to that like, 20 years ago, we were talking about the transition from sage on the stage to guide on the side, or whatever.
Jeff: Parents we came up with.
Jeff: How does all of what Jen's talking about affect the teacher role.
Dave: Yeah. And I mean that
Dave: 80 years ago, we're talking about it, too, right? Like, it's that that sort of shift from content dominance to
Dave: sort of literacy domains, or however you want to talk about it.
Dave: student centered versus teacher centered, or or whatever we can do it up for a long time.
Dave: I think. Well, I I did a talk to a bunch of teachers yesterday, and what I was telling them is that what you need to do is demonstrate your expertise.
Dave: So
Dave: we're talking about using
Dave: how to search, but doing it as a live activity in the class, instead of sending kids out to do research and then go through that research and present their results in a paper. What you need to do is have them go out and search something in your class, put their search question in, put their results in, pull that up on the board, and then walk through it so you could demonstrate what expertise looks like
Dave: when you're actually going through their questions and responses, pulling up websites and going. Oh, yeah, no, this is, I can tell by looking at this on this website that this person isn't whatever or having going. Oh.
Dave: you found this piece of research that says this.
Dave: let's find out who that author is, and they're like, what does it matter like? It actually matters if you're trying to come to understand the research? It's not about just finding a fact. It's about understanding the context. So I think
Dave: that sort of
Dave: say, the the guide on the side business. I would put the guide on the stage, I guess.
Jeff: And the expertise doesn't just mean knowledge of subject matter. It means filtering ability and knowledge of how to seek.
Dave: Totally.
Jeff: Liable answers.
John: And that's an
John: interesting concept to do that in front of students where you're just talking through your thinking and doing that while they're watching.
John: Something we don't normally do.
Dave: It's exposing.
Dave: It's hard work.
Jeff: Bodily.
Dave: I think so. And again I mean, information. Filtering is so much what we do now.
Dave: And and I want students to. I want them to sort of
Dave: have that sense where they do one piece of research, and find that this part is true, and then find another piece and see that it's the opposite is also true. And they're like, Well, how do we decide? And that's where I want to be.
Dave: I wanna be with them at that point where they're like, how am I supposed to decide? And I'm like, Well, I don't know.
Dave: But why don't you keep following that through? And we'll see if I can find you some other pieces, and let's do another search. And let's think about this a different way.
Dave: and then sometimes realize that there's no right decision, or that we found that there actually is a great one.
Dave: right? But it depends
Dave: on on what you're looking at and and what you need to do with it.
Jen: So from for me when I'm now on Linkedin, or you're on Facebook groups and conversations about AI. Lot of conversations have the group saying, tell me about the best AI detector that I can use, because I wanna continue using the same assignments I've used.
Jen: And then the other half of the group is like, No, no, no, no, you're you're you're kind of getting it into a conversation like we're having. We're going to use AI, because it's a thing as the thing that everybody's going to have have access to or has access to. In. In most of you, especially us classrooms, you can find it on your phone, or whatever. And so
Jen: how do you, you know, model those? And so those are the conversations I think, are so interesting. So have you, or in in, you're talking about this.
Jen: come across any individuals or any folks that are doing some interesting work in in this regard that are thinking about
Jen: how assignments will be changed, or even how.
Dave: Great Charlie.
Jen: Be adapted.
Dave: Yesterday.
Dave: It's literally what I did yesterday.
Dave: So the 1st 3 slides of my presentation yesterday were a picture of 10 Zing Norgay
Dave: and him and Hilary
Dave: and they had. Just just after they went up Everest, and we talked about what it meant and what was involved in that, and what like the feeling and facing the unknown. And what was that thing all about? And also I keep pushing. How cool, tending Norway is! And we had this whole conversation, and then I showed them a picture of what the top of Everest looks like today.
Dave: where you've got a long line of 500 people who are waiting in line to go the next step up the lane to get their picture in the top of Everest.
Dave: because there are literally 500 people in line waiting to get to the top.
Dave: And I don't mean like in line, like stretched out, I mean, like lying like group 3 wide.
Dave: And just because you're doing the same thing doesn't mean you're doing the same thing was the sort of.
Dave: And I think that's that's the message that that I know lots of people have that they're passing around right now. I did a really great act, a really great activity at Plymouth.
Dave: Robin Derosa and Martha Burtis. We're doing a an activity
Dave: month ago, where they had a group of teachers going out and doing research on a given topic. I think they were doing space junk or something
Dave: and had them doing in 5 different search spaces and testing out different ways of doing it, testing out different kinds of responses and working with academics and trying to get a sense of
Dave: how these tools are responding, what kind of biases are involved, and how you can draw from that.
Dave: So there's a lot of people doing that right now.
Dave: It's just it's really, I mean.
Dave: higher. Ed, in North America is mostly taught by sessions.
Dave: Right? It's mostly taught by people who adjuncts
Dave: people who don't have secure positions.
Dave: And K 12 system is mostly taught by teachers who don't control their curriculum.
Dave: So it's really tough
Dave: to make these kinds of changes inside the system. If you don't have job security or you don't have access to actually do the changes. So I think there's lots of people talking about it.
Dave: But if you talk to somebody in the K 12 system and say, I want you to stop doing essays because they're a waste of time. Anyway, they're gonna say they're gonna have to write essays when they get to university, and I gotta teach them how to do it now, and they're not wrong.
Dave: Hey, John? Yeah.
Jeff: Person in the K. 12 system.
Dave: Everybody's kind of trapped.
Jeff: Are you feeling trapped?
John: Our teachers definitely are
John: right. The the joy that we we before we recorded we're talking about is the last day of school in my in my schools, and
John: real tears among students, not just at the primary level, not just say kindergarten and 1st grade, but like 4th grade, 5th grade teachers and students crying because it's the last day school, and they're losing those relationships. And that's something that that doesn't necessarily persist.
John: I think, as the students get older
John: and get into, especially into high school.
John: The the focus shifts from taking care of people and focusing on students, 1st and content, second, to
John: disseminating content in ways that students are expected to encounter
John: in higher education. So preparing them for college.
John: regardless of what they're actually, they're actually going to college.
John: So you know, we do final exams. Right? Final exams are a really bad idea, because, you know, one thing every kid in America knows how to do is take tests. We don't need to do more of that.
John: But yet here we are giving them these huge summative high stakes exams that have, you know this enormous impact on their grade, which is the primary motivator for students, because we have to rely on extrinsic motivation because the content which we don't have a lot of control over isn't intrinsically motivating. I mean it. They do feel trapped because they can't
John: do the things that they know are good for kids.
Jeff: Okay, I'm concerned.
Jeff: Chapter goal, accomplished.
Jen: No, you, Jeff Jeff, do you have the the things, the subjects you're teaching is AI influencing what you're seeing.
Jeff: Sure it's involved. And I have embraced the fact that I'm teaching mostly writing courses, this semester and I use AI for my writing, and they're gonna use AI for their writing. So we do both.
Jeff: There is unassisted.
Jeff: like their most of their assignments. Now they have to do an unassisted draft
Jeff: and then an optimized draft, and they can use whatever tools they want. And they have to have a statement of academic integrity that tells me what they did.
Jeff: and I have baselines of their writing abilities, so I can know or have a sense when
Jeff: draft one is not their writing
Jeff: so, and and that.
John: That's kind of where we are around AI as well.
John: we acknowledge that AI exists and our students are going to use it, whether we want them to or not, and or whether we tell them they can or can't. And so, just being upfront about what's okay and what's not okay, and that changes based on the class that you're in, on the age of the student, on the instructional objectives, on the assignment, you know.
John: and really trying to have some of those conversations with teachers about, think ahead of time, about what's okay and what's not okay. And there's the black and white. The you know, student writes, everything by themselves is okay, and AI does. The entire project is probably not okay. But there's all these things in the middle where maybe I use AI to help with the research. And I write the actual essay. Or maybe I create an outline and say, Put this into words. And then I MoD modify it and revise it. After that
John: or maybe I write the whole thing and say to AI, make this look less like a text conversation, and more like an academic paper, and it cleans it up.
John: Which of those are okay, and it under what conditions? And so those are some of the conversations we're trying to
John: encourage our teachers to have.
John: but in terms of plugging it into a tool and saying, You know, detect whether this is AI,
John: it's not gonna work. And it's certainly not gonna work like, I can appeal to math teachers really? Well, because I could say, Okay, it's 90% effective. Great, 90% effective
John: in a class of 25 kids means, you know.
John: point 9 to the 25th power that you're gonna get them all correct, which is, which is pretty low. Yeah, you're definitely going to be penalizing kids, freezing AI when they're not.
John: And
John: you know, if the stakes are are really high. If it's part of your exam grade, or it's part of your you know your semester grade.
John: it's not worth it. So use those in cases where you're doing formative assessments.
Dave: You know. I asked a room of a hundred writing teachers yesterday.
Dave: What they signed essays for.
Dave: and nobody said to teach kids how to write long form.
Dave: One person said to learn Apa, and we laughed at them.
Jen: With the.
John: Hmm.
Dave: I think they were just taunting me, but I'm not sure but they were like to learn how to research things so they can find the answer to things, to be able to pull together different ideas, to be able to do deeper thinking they'd be able to do. They listed all these things, and none of them were about writing an essay so they could be essay writers when they get older.
Dave: I think that's where we're at with all these things is, we need to ask ourselves what these skills actually are. And I think research skills are super super super important.
Dave: And I think if you go out and do a bunch of research skills and pull together
Dave: a result from that and get somebody to write up the things that you've come to terms with. I'm cool with that
Dave: right as long as you've done. The thing that I think is important for you to have done.
Dave: And unfortunately, we associate that with the product. And now anybody can make a product.
Jen: And circling back to what you said earlier. Certainly. I fall in the category by adjunct. I I teach at University of New Mexico and then University of Virginia, and I don't even know what my flexibility is to change assignments. So you know, I can tweak things.
Jen: but we. We have papers, do, I can, and we have discussion boards and things like that which is Discussion board is just completely obsolete. Now, if you're following the same, you know. Write a post and reply to 2 other students. You know that that's just an AI cut and paste, and I don't know what value that brings to anybody? So all those assignments, in my opinion, need to be looked at the way you're doing it, Jeff, with
Jen: you know, using. I think I use the 1st week we have. We're on here like using AI as like a study, Buddy, and then having the transparency and talking.
Jeff: I've tweaked the prom like, you know I if I'm editing or giving feedback, based on writing mechanics.
Jeff: you know I have all my correction codes, and and I give them feedback. I've tweaked a prompt so that it's pretty close to what I would give.
Jeff: So then I question, what's my role
Jeff: like
Jeff: it saves me a lot of time, and certainly some students use it, and some students don't. They can do that on their own for the most part now. So I can focus more on content
Jeff: and other feedback rather than you know. Okay, subject, verb, agreement, or or whatever else.
Jeff: And I think like in terms of assessment.
Jeff: The Ph. D. Dissertation defense seems like a good model.
Jeff: like, you know. Do you know this?
Jeff: Prove it in front of a panel that that knows something about it.
Jen: I think that becomes then the the problem and the challenges. You know everybody's thinking. Oh, with all of this online stuff, we can have classes of
Jen: 75 students, or 95, or whatever the number is. And then
Jen: who's got the time to do all of those type? The things that you're saying.
Jeff: Might that be a role for a human.
Jen: Yeah.
Jeff: Which is sort of what S. Nh, U. Has done a lot.
Jeff: They've sort of pioneered online learning for the last couple of decades. And it's all like competency based. So basically.
Jeff: Materials are there, and at the end of the semester you just have to prove that you can do what you need to do. If it's an accounting course, prove that you can do this if it's a
Jeff: velocity course, proved that you have mastered whatever.
Jen: Yeah, okay, I think we're way off.
Dave: Fine.
Dave: As long as the education system is there to train
Dave: those people who are prepared to learn.
Jeff: Yes, and I'm concerned about that.
Jen: Huh!
Jeff: I got the memo.
Jen: You can't tell memo.
Jen: Well, and then, yeah, John, I think you were kind of alluding to some of this to when you're saying maybe getting break ready for higher education, also teaching to a test right like. Unfortunately, we still have
Jen: admissions and things like that. People have to know certain.
Jen: no certain facts or whatever. That's still a part of the system that we're running up against.
John: Ct scores.
John: To get, you know. Gotta be in the thirties right?
John: She got to get scholarship money and get into those good schools and.
Jeff: Are all those standardized tests? Still multiple choice for the most part.
Jeff: Yeah.
Dave: And some of the ivy leagues are going back to them.
Dave: Hmm!
John: Yeah.
Jeff: More concerns.
Dave: Yeah, I appreciate the concern on your face, Jeff.
Jen: Jeff, do you? Wanna do you wanna take a pause and like, let's talk about smart, positive things we can. If you want, we can just take a quick pause.
Jeff: no, that's okay.
Jeff: I'd love to talk about something negative Dave was talking about.
Jeff: how you know the book binding sources of truth, and how, when you put it in a book, it has a certain authority, but that as soon as you publish it, it's wrong
Jeff: it gets out of date.
Jeff: What's wrong with learning in a time of abundance? So far it's been months since it's been published.
Dave: Then the writing was finished. A year and a half ago.
John: I have a list.
Dave: I think
Dave: there are some. Actually, it's funny you say that.
Dave: This article I'm actually leaning on right now.
Dave: I would have put in to that book.
Dave: Now, it's from 1958. So it's not because it's not.
Dave: It's too new. It's because I just had never seen it before a couple of weeks ago.
Dave: And it talks about how.
Dave: apparently. And I did not know this.
Dave: Apparently all this sort of right answer problem solving stuff
Dave: comes out of
Dave: people's attempts to mimic
Dave: the
Dave: processes of early computers.
Dave: So in this article Herbert Simon and Alan Newell, who are like the foundation of problem solving and education.
Dave: We're working with the Rand Corporation on the Rand Johnny Act
Dave: computer
Dave: and said, the digital computers, it says, digital computers 90, 58. The digital computers have this whole other way of problem solving that we've learned from them. And now we're modeling our processes
Dave: by looking at that model and copying it.
Dave: Go ahead, John. Say, what's on your face.
John: Okay?
John: well, first, st it. It amazes me that it's not in Audrey's book cause Audrey Waters wrote a book called Teaching Machines, and I don't remember.
John: It's been a while, but I don't remember
John: seeing in there that the presence of the machines would change
John: the education that they're trying to implement.
John: But
John: it also reminds me of data driven decision making, right? Because instructional goals based on the data because we want to improve schools and to improve schools. We have to improve the way schools are measured, and then to improve that, we have to improve. You know the things that they measure, and so we end up valuing the things that are easy to measure instead of the things that are important.
John: And so when you go too far toward
John: data, driven decision making and creating your goals based on test scores and state report cards and and all of those kinds of things. Then
John: you abandon all of the stuff that you say is important, and as part of your mission, because you can't measure them.
Jeff: So what existed before that? And should we go back to the 1940 S. Model.
John: Apprenticeships.
Dave: Yes, and and these guys, what they were fighting against was intuition.
Dave: What they particularly hated was intuition, that sense of
Dave: like. I figured it out. I've looked at the problem, and this is my intuition, and we're gonna try it.
Dave: So they were looking for a much more sort of
Dave: observable repeatable approach to problem, solving so.
John: Intuition, the same thing as innovation and problem, solving and creativity.
Dave: I don't know.
Jen: Don't know. You're the expert.
Dave: Nope.
John: Oh, he he had! He wrote a whole book that says he's allowed to say he doesn't know.
Jen: Glad to say it. He's giving us.
Jeff: Is.
John: Part of that uncertainty thing.
Jeff: I think intuition is an excuse to believe whatever I want to believe.
Dave: I think it can be. I think it can also be an expression of expertise.
Dave: So I think that if I look at a problem and something I've been working on for 20 years, like I finally almost starting to get there with with building things where I'll look at it and go. I think I know what's wrong with that, and I'll go and look at them like. Yep, that's what it was.
Dave: I've just. I've seen it enough.
Dave: right? There's enough there. I've seen enough variables and enough different circumstances that I get kind of an intuition about what to do about it, and I can go and do something about it.
Jeff: And once you prove what you do it and it works, then you've proved that your intuition is
Jeff: worthwhile.
Dave: If there was only one answer. And there, that's the thing like I look at the answer that I did so like. I fixed the thing that I built out. Back. I built a little
Dave: squirrel resistant vegetable garden in the backyard
Dave: and when I found one of the problems I did something.
Dave: It's not the right fix. It's not the. It's not a fix to a problem.
Dave: Apparently it's not the solution to a problem. It's a fix to a problem.
Dave: So I no longer have that problem anymore. There are probably much better ways of doing it. The one that I chose is not necessarily the right one. But my intuition was that this would allow me to get away from the problem I was having.
Dave: whereas what these guys are talking about is that if you give enough details into a computer, if you give it enough information, we'll always get the right answer.
Jeff: As long as you'd rather have Scotty or Jordi le Forge fixing things.
Dave: I missed.
Jeff: Star, Fleet Manual.
Jen: Alright, can I? Can I switch gears on us.
Dave: Label.
Jen: Okay, well, this is kind of my last segment chunk.
Jen: and I don't mean not even sure how everybody really ties into what we're saying, because I don't remember that Jeff or Dave did this segue. But this whole idea that impact on communities and people and you had some really good examples of. I think you had the example. If you were matted, I think it was a
Jen: ball player, or whatever you'd like, shake your fist at the TV. Well, now.
Dave: Is.
Jen: You know we can. We.
Dave: If you didn't like dinner.
Jen: German.
Dave: Yeah, you didn't. If you didn't enjoy the dinner you just had, you could stop and grab some food on the way home, or whatever else. But now it gets. And again, actually, that is one of the things that's changed a little bit, Jeff, is that
Dave: there's not as much posting
Dave: live posting as there was even a few years ago in the last.
Dave: Really, since Covid, I think
Dave: we've got a lot less live posting going on.
Dave: It's much more stylized. The postings that you do see like there's a lot more run up to something getting posted. There's more of the. So
Dave: as Instagram became Snapchat, if you know what I mean. Like
Dave: the kids used to post on insta in a way that the posts
Dave: persistent. And now they use the the one where it goes away right? So that we've had this movement to
Dave: the snap chatification of social media
Dave: which is not actually reflected in the book.
Jen: Yeah. And I do think that runs up against what we're just saying, if we're saying problems now, you know, get more information. We need to spend more time chewing on it. We need to say we don't know. We have to have persistence. Things need to take longer. Yeah, we're running up against a culture where you know you don't wanna put yourself out there for fear
Jen: especially. We've talked about this historically. We've said, you know, I've blogged all through college, Shannon. So you said, was it on an interview? We said like a board member was like, I hear you blog like, What's that all about so yeah, I think that it's kind of fun. We all have the got together, really, because we thought of the cool potential of being able to
Jen: create communities around things to talk about and try things and look dumb, and whatever
Jen: But yeah, I think that that I think that's an interesting. So why did you put that in this in this part of the book, like I cause I this is to me kind of hangs out there a little bit, unless it's like you said you were just trying to chunk the negative implications all in all in a chapter. But it was, it seemed, to pivot to me a bit. I'm talking more about the.
Dave: Question. I would have to go over that. I'd have to read back over this section to try to figure out why it was exactly there.
Dave: I hadn't thought about it that way.
Dave: Maybe it's because I'm a distracted loon, and I don't always put the Id.
Jen: I mean is.
Jeff: Keep it there so.
Dave: Yeah, John did allow me to keep it there.
Jen: John, why did you let him keep it? There.
Dave: I think that
Dave: I think there's something really important about understanding how much more abundance allows, what we're done to be seen. One of the other examples I think I used was about in residence, that I use a residence example, too, because I've used that elsewhere.
Dave: Where I used to teach kids that
Dave: every time you post that you've gone out with your 3 friends on your floor, you've posted to the rest of the friends on your floor that you didn't go out with that.
John: Your company.
Dave: And that didn't used to be the case right? You didn't. You may have taken a picture when you went out together, but that picture was 4 weeks from coming back from the
Dave: from the photo booth, for those of you don't know. You just have to take film from cameras and
Dave: doesn't get the pictures back.
Dave: So there was no like direct response.
Dave: The closest you could get from a direct response of what actually happened was Jeff's website in Poussin.
Dave: Where he would take party pictures of parties that happened, and then you'd be in trouble for having it.
Jeff: I get emails from people's parents saying, I'm so happy to see Johnny. I haven't seen him in so long. Why is he always drinking.
Dave: Did you really.
John: Yeah.
Dave: Oh, that's hilarious! And that's Jeff using abundance because.
John: But the important part of that is the exclusionary thing, because everybody knows that they weren't invited, and that that's new. Now.
Dave: And I don't. I I can understand how I might not have woven that in right. But to me it's 1 of those things that
Dave: is
Dave: a part of abundance that we don't always notice. So, same as you know, you're shouting at the guy and TV, except now you're tweeting Adam. And now you're messaging Adam, and that that rage that you had is now increasing other people's rage, and gives them something to jump off from.
Dave: You know, John. Stewart did a piece
Dave: last week talking about how you know it's all about clicks.
Dave: And you know that that rage culture, and the sort of I'm I'm curious that you culture and all the rest of that business is just about monetary clicks.
Dave: And unfortunately, we're all learning from it that that's how we're supposed to engage with each other.
Dave: Whereas, you know, if you you look at a newspaper from 40 years ago, and it's shortcomings. But there was none of that like.
Dave: Get it on the on the cover. Maybe, like the lead.
John: People weren't making a decision on whether to buy the newspaper based on every single article, on every single page. It wasn't, it was you're buying the newspaper or not, and that's determined on the top 2 inches on the front page.
Jeff: And you have one.
John: That is just tell the story from.
John: Yeah.
Jen: You put yourself out there as the target. So if you're you're set setting yourself out there as an expert, and then someone decides they don't like your ideas, they don't like you. Then they just take you down so like, why would you put yourself out? You know why? Why bother? Why, and I think you had a couple of examples of something kinda close to that. But I don't exactly remember if it was this chapter. But but it kind of gets to the point to like
Jen: expertise. And who are experts? And who's going to want that? Who's going to want that baggage of
Jen: like, I said, putting yourself out there just to be taken down.
Dave: And and to to make the education pivot again.
Dave: What does it mean for us to train people to find expertise in fields? They're not experts in
Dave: so, and that to me is the question that
Dave: I never figured how to frame it properly when I get a chance to ask it.
Dave: But
Dave: we have. You know, if there are 30 million 37 million people in Canada, 36.5 million of them are not scientists.
Dave: But the vast majority of them have had to make at least one science decision in their lives.
Dave: And if you're going to make a science decision. How would you do it
Dave: right? How do you go about choosing a scientific expert to believe?
Dave: How do you go about trying to weave through it because you should not be reading the articles because you're not going to understand them.
Dave: Right? So how do you choose?
Dave: But we don't teach that
Dave: we teach you the preparation for being a scientist, so that later on you'll know enough to be able to judge between them. But we never get there.
Dave: Alright. I have a few.
Jeff: Thoughts to share. And I'm weird. I'm gonna forget them.
Jen: Got Sam quick.
Jeff: Okay. 1st one is that 1,990 s. Abundance was 320 by 2 40 pixels, and it was dazzling at the time.
Jeff: As far as the ephemeral nature of social media these days. Yeah, they post stories more than post. But I can go to Instagram now and find a million live streams. And
Jeff: there are all these
Jeff: connections in communities. And and this chapter, I think, is the 1st time I saw community is the curriculum
Jeff: explicitly stated, and you make the point. That community has always been the curriculum
Jeff: it used to be. You know, your small town and the people that you trusted. Isn't that still, how we make decisions? The community is much bigger. We have
Jeff: micro not micro but mean, you know, sub communities and overlapping communities. But just like in the old days, we trusted Mildred's cookie recipe more than Martha's.
Jeff: don't we still have our online Mildreds that we trust, more than our mark does.
Jeff: Apologize.
Dave: I have online Mildred and Martha's to make decisions about carpentry things cause I do enough of it.
Dave: I have online milders and Martha's for education, for technology.
Dave: for cooking in some places. So I I gave the the.
Dave: What's his faces? The guys at the.
John: Denji.
Dave: Yeah, kenji from
Dave: different cooking websites and stuff. So I have it for that.
Dave: I don't have it. For the example I use last time about
Dave: using a heat pump.
Dave: Do you know.
John: Do you trust mild Mildred's
John: cooking or carpentry website more than Martha's? Because Mildred is a better
John: chef or a better carpenter, or because she has better SEO.
John: That's okay.
Jeff: Peace tastes better.
Jeff: my like.
John: Or she can, or she can game the algorithm. So her things pop up.
John: And I think it's yeah.
Dave: Because I've had some success making her cookies.
John: Okay.
Dave: Right. So I think it's because I do enough of that
Dave: to have been able to evaluate the thing that you're giving me to get a sense that there's something reliable about it.
Dave: Right? And again, I have those for a very small nature of things. So again, right now, I'm trying to decide whether or not
Dave: we put solar panels on the house.
Dave: and if we put solar panels on the house, I probably need to add a 200 amp breaker in the house, and then we'll be looking towards getting an electric car, and I'm trying to find out right now whether or not it actually makes sense to think about charging an electric car with the solar panels on your house.
Dave: Does that actually happen.
Dave: or am I just sort of thinking about a thing I don't understand.
Dave: and I can't seem to mix my words in such a way to find a group of people who, I reliably believe
Dave: to make those kinds of huge financial decisions, but also fitting in with the environmental ethic that I'm trying to develop as a person.
Jeff: Have you asked AI.
Dave: It'll answer whichever way you want to ask it.
Dave: So if you ask it, if it's possible, we'll say yes, if you ask if it's not possible. Say no.
Jeff: Can't you ask it in a more neutral way?
Dave: Then it's going to answer you at random.
Dave: because it's just pulling from Reddit.
Dave: It's a.
Jeff: Can't you specify.
John: From the sales company. The people are selling solar.
Jeff: And you guys are so skeptical.
Dave: The the thing. It's.
Jeff: Concerned about your skepticism.
Dave: AI doesn't help you with the Internet cause. All it's doing is reproducing the Internet.
Dave: right? So if you're asking AI about things that are generally settled.
Dave: It's fine, cause it's going to give you the generally settled answer. If you're asking.
Jeff: They only use sources of this
Jeff: nature or caliber only like sometimes when I do, my.
Dave: As much as those sources were. I wouldn't need to do this.
Jeff: Well, you could ask them.
Jeff: Give me the sources.
Jeff: Show me the verified sources that have researched bit that are related.
John: Them, are using.
Jeff: It's gotten better.
Dave: It has gotten better. Actually. So if you use Scholar Gpt, for instance, right now, if you switch to Scholar Gpt when I tried it for stuff that I knew. Every one of the references was accurate. There were real ones.
Dave: The the problem is, Jeff, is that it only works. If I can verify it myself. I need to be able to tell it, which I couldn't even tell you which
Dave: sources on solar a person should listen to.
Dave: I don't know. That's my problem. I don't know.
Dave: and I'm I'm like you. Janice made the same comment 5 times, and I don't think any of us. Certainly not. Me has responded to her. She's quite right. I have more persistence than the average bear
Dave: like when I get onto something I hit it and hit it and hit it and hit it, and I'm relentless with it, and I still have not managed to crack this not. And again, it's not like
Dave: it's not like this is what I do all day. It's that for the last year and a half
Dave: every few weeks I go. I'm gonna go try that again.
Dave: Hope.
Jeff: Why is it so hard like, you know the cost of what solar panel, what it would cost you to generate a certain amount of solar power energy.
Jeff: You know the cost of
Jeff: alternative sources of fueling your electric car.
Jeff: Why is it so hard.
John: You don't know how long the solar panels are gonna last. You don't know how long
Jeff: Can get.
John: Maintenance they're going to need. No, I don't think so, because they haven't been around long enough
John: to have real data there. You don't know what the weather in Windsor is going to. You know, sunlight, whether that makes sense or whether their calculations are based on. Oh, you're living in Tennessee, or you're living in Georgia, or you're living.
Dave: I'll give you one piece of zoom. There's a new sort of thread through the community that says you're actually better having the solar panels on the southwest side of your house rather than the south side, because you get better quality sun
Dave: during that part of the day.
Dave: That's 1 of 10,000 things
Dave: right, and because I have access to all of the. If I didn't have access to all the information, I'd have a book in my house that said all about solar panels, and I would have read it, and I would.
Jeff: It seems like the, you know. To a certain extent the information just isn't out there. So Mildred wouldn't have known either. She would have said, I don't know. Have some cookies.
Dave: The Google algorithm is so bad. Now.
John: Did you ask Mrs. Beeton about solar panels?
Dave: Should have
Dave: should have
Dave: and then it's like solar tiles. And there's like all this business. And I'm not saying, Jeff, that if I like buckle down, and this is all I did. I'm sure I'd be able to eventually figure it out.
Dave: But it's 1 of the things that's just on my list.
Dave: Brandon, this is the.
Jeff: Can you not figure it out because the information is not out there yet, or you can't find the information.
Jeff: 2 0.
Jen: But it's good.
Dave: There is not the information.
Dave: It's that there is an abundance of information, and it's all contradictory.
Dave: So some people will tell you that that's dumb. And some people will tell you. Obviously, that's what you should do.
Dave: and everything in between.
Jen: You just described reddit.
Dave: Did this, friend? This is the thing
Dave: right? And so
Dave: I and I am extensively. I have some idea of how to use these tools. I have some idea how to do a search.
Dave: I'm certainly better at it than my kid.
Jeff: Hello!
Dave: Oh, my God! Oh, my God!
John: S-.
Dave: I can't find anything on the Google machine about it. Did you put any words in? Oh, never thought to do that.
Jen: I'm going to ask those that have children, or with the younger the younger folk, how I think it came up couple of topics ago, or a topic and a half ago being able to see through the Bs like, are they better at it, or worse? And I because I'm looking at like
Jen: the senior citizens said, they are great at it, being able to tell if it's on the Internet like that, that's on the Internet. So that's right, like, how does that.
Dave: I don't think there's a group that's any good at it.
Jen: I think they're.
John: Different biases.
John: They trust different things than their grandparents do, but they're still. I think we all have blind spots.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: yeah.
Jeff: Supposedly they value authenticity, but you know.
Jen: What does that mean? Practice? Authenticity.
Jeff: Well.
Jen: Yeah.
Dave: I'm the only one who's waiting for Jeff to send me the link to the article. That explains the thing about the solar panels right now.
Jeff: Stay tuned. I'm gonna put that in the shoulder.
Jen: I will be in the show now.
Dave: Yeah. Thanks.
Jen: That's that ties in that whole idea like the Bs meters like, is that another role for the educators to like help people go like, yeah, this person sell you a solar. Happy to sell you a solar panel. They don't care whether it actually will be around in 20 years when you're.
Dave: It's not how they're trained right.
Jeff: Develop a training course for that. Dave.
Dave: I have.
Jeff: Bs. Detection.
Dave: What's that?
Jeff: Bsl protection, course.
Dave: Oh, there's actually you could just look at Howard's what's his name?
Dave: Crop detector? Howard. Reingold, there's a whole thing about crop detection.
Dave: I don't don't. Yeah, Chai. He's it's really good. Actually, there's some really good stuff there.
Dave: CRAP. Baseball crap.
Jeff: Yeah, seems to me so I know we're concerned. There's a lot of concerns.
Jen: Yes, there's a lot of concern.
Jeff: But I feel like I'm a i have to admit I'm a little bit encouraged because I feel like there's a role for humans in.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Jeff: Option in, you know, filtering and expertise
Jeff: analysis.
Dave: Should all around the word should is where I think
Dave: the the human part comes in. And that's what was I telling you guys about the poor people, the students who are asking me about how they're ever going to fit in the job market. Now that Jenna is there that tell you guys the story. So I was doing a talk for the social psych graduate students on my campus.
Dave: And you know, it was my normal tourist admin stuff. And one of the kids at the end goes, they ask questions. And the 1st question was.
Dave: so I'm going into the you know, I'm going into this workforce like in 10 years. How am I ever supposed to argue with somebody and say that my skills are actually worthwhile? They can just get this stuff from AI.
Dave: I was like
Dave: good question.
Dave: And the question is to to answer to me is, is that a human can deal with Shoulds
Dave: and the AI can give you an answer
Dave: which may or may not be applicable to your the context of your situation. Right? So they can deal with complexity. They can deal with wicked problems, how you will
Dave: and they can sort of consider
Dave: the nuance of a situation in a way that a system can only respond to the inputs you gave it.
Jeff: They should become solar panel experts.
Dave: Right.
John: And.
Dave: Be awesome.
Dave: much, very happy about it. But I just
Dave: it is one of those things where I just get lost in the abundance of it
Dave: where you're just all over the place, and there's so much information and so much of it is commercial.
Dave: I don't know.
John: Then you end up at at the end of it, saying, Yes, you can make a tiny little contribution to making the environment better, but you have to give your money to Elon.
Dave: That's right.
Dave: Right? That's right.
Dave: Yep. There's all those sort of intersections right?
Dave: yep.
Dave: his problem.
Dave: anyway. So it's hard, because I don't even know
Dave: how that we've ever taught anybody how to make that argument. That the thing I'm good at is not solving your problems, but telling you, if you should solve them.
Jeff: Isn't that we, you and we've been doing for 20 years.
Dave: We've been saying it.
Dave: but I don't think everybody listening.
Jeff: Well, not our fault.
Dave: It's nice.
Jeff: We should be better at marketing. Maybe we should learn some marketing skills or.
Dave: That's right. That's right. I mean, it's the same thing that that sort of
Dave: progressive education's been saying for 200 years. Right?
Dave: The. It's about how learning kids how to make meaning
Dave: teach. You know how to make meaning right.
Dave: And then guys like
Dave: Daniel Willingham will say, Well, it won't help them be better problem solvers.
Dave: and I'm like don't care, especially now. Now it's easy to say, don't care. I'm like I got Jenny. I what are you problems over for.
Jen: Apparently you do.
Dave: Apparently. No, that's true.
Jen: So.
Jeff: The problem of getting a job.
Dave: Well.
Dave: that is a problem I'm going to be having this year. So
Dave: I got that exact problem. There you go. Who knows? Maybe I'll be able to.
Jeff: Research.
Jen: Yeah, this was our conversation and dinner with my family on Saturday night. We were going around the table. We were like, yeah, my job's gonna be gone. Yeah, yeah. My jobs, fundamentally couldn't change.
Dave: And then.
Jen: When I this week I got my hair cut and my my woman who cut my hair she was. It's gonna be a long time before my job is really impacted by. And I'm like, you're probably right. It's probably true.
Dave: I think you're okay. That's a tough one.
Dave: Yeah, I don't less at risk than some others. I think.
Jen: Well, that was the extent of my question. I don't know. Do you guys have any?
Jen: yeah. Other questions.
John: Apparently this is at least partially an education problem
John: is that work.
Jeff: My question. That is the next chapter. My question is which words should be stressed.
Jeff: This is at least partially an education problem, or this is at least partially an education problem, or this is at least partially an education problem. How should we read this chapter?
John: Are you saying we have to tune in next week to get the answer to that question.
Jeff: Hanger!
John: Or whenever the next time we do. This is, I'm not sure we have a date yet.
Jeff: Alright, so.
John: Yeah, that at a post shot.
Jeff: Stay tuned to the post show for discussion of that and other things.
Jeff: Thank you. Everyone for tuning in once again.
Jeff: This content is not ephemeral. It will be published
Jeff: and show noted. And there might be some information about solar panels. So we'll see you next time.
Jeff: Jen. Did you say you teach at U. And M.
Jen: University of Mexico. Yeah.
Jeff: Lobos, you're a lobo.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, I'm 1 class, I mean one.
Jeff: I got my.
John: Jen be there.
Jen: Did you really.
Jeff: My teaching certificate.
Jen: Like actually there, like actually on campus.
Jeff: Have you been there?
Jen: I have not as not in a teaching capacity. No, I've been in New Mexico.
Jeff: Go there and eat at the frontier, and that's all.
Jen: Good w-.
Jeff: Label franchettos.
Jeff: now.
John: Have you been the Old Dominion yet.
Jen: I was for graduation. I walked to ceremony, and I was there for like an interview, I think when I started, and that was, I didn't even have to go for the interview. I just wanted to see what these people are all about.
Jen: And I've never been to Virginia, so they'll mention all kinds of things in Virginia that I've never.
John: Ever heard of.
Jeff: So I had an exciting geek week. I have moved Korea Bridge from a vps to a shared host. You know how, when older people you. They kind of get to the point where you need to question whether they should have a driver's license. I've at the I'm at the point where I question whether I should have a server maintenance license, because.
Dave: Yeah. Man.
Jeff: I. It's like I'm tired to trying to keep it up and and worry about security concerns. And now and then I, lovely shared.
John: Yeah thing. That's.
Jeff: Anymore. I know.
Dave: To share hosting. About 5 years ago.
Jeff: Yep.
Dave: I just couldn't anymore.
Dave: I was like, what version of Php am I in.
John: Right.
Dave: Frigging. No!
Dave: Oh, I have his engineer, but.
John: Can't upgrade it.
Dave: I have to update the amount of something in the setting somewhere, I mean, I still miss being able to do redirects
Dave: like like straight in the Apache file, but
Dave: I'm sorry, but.
Jeff: I love. AI. I love putting in drupal errors, and saying, This is the error.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Jeff: Oh, okay, I kind of makes sense. I still am not sure I can do fix it, but I understand.
Dave: I understand what's happening. Yeah.
John: Yeah, then you do the thing it tells you to do, and and it doesn't work. And you say, Oh, and I got this error message. Oh, well, that makes sense. That's because what I told you was, here's what you would should actually do.
John: Yeah. AI is really really bad, with variable scope
John: in bash
John: like. It doesn't understand that variables don't persist into subroutines. And so
John: it it really makes a mess when you try to get it to do those things.
John: Not that you do.
Dave: So I got my 17th different attempt at trying to do a community building activity guys.
Dave: I'm running an online conference in July.
Jen: Oh, we were supposed to talk about that.
John: Him right.
Dave: It is an open SIM. Yeah, that's awesome.
Dave: Yeah. Phil Princeton.
John: I'm not coming to your conference.
Dave: That's fine!
Jen: It's online. You, everybody can go.
John: I'm in Indonesia, though.
Jen: Oh, oh, that's right, that's right.
John: With limited data.
Jen: That's right.
Jen: Are you leaving John?
John: For that trip we're leaving on July 10th and coming up.
Jen: That track, and when you.
John: The other trip is to England, and that is in June.
Jeff: June? What?
John: June 18th to 25, th ish.
Dave: Fun.
John: It is fun!
Jen: I'm having a hip replacement 3 weeks from today.
John: No.
Jen: A new hip right this time
Jen: in 3 weeks.
John: June 20.th
Dave: Sounds very yep.
John: Are we going back to Mondays.
Jen: Yeah. Monday works for me.
Dave: Hmm.
Dave: is that okay.
Jeff: Either. Yep. Yeah.
Jen: Looks for me.
John: So the 3, rd like in a few days.
Jen: In a few days. Oh, no, we'll have to read really fast, and write my question super fast.
Jeff: Just ask chat, gpt.
Jen: That's true.
Jen: It did a nice job. It took my call, you know. You remember you did that, Jeff. We took my call.
Jeff: Yeah.
Jen: And then had it reformat it. I didn't follow the format ish, and maybe it did.
Jen: It did nice job of making turning them into
Jen: prompted.
Dave: Are you guys putting my book into Chai Gbt.
Jen: No!
Jen: There you go again.
Jeff: No Tanya.
John: Or go.
Jen: We took my notes.
Dave: Intellectual property.
Jen: Tend, to.
John: Work on that.
Dave: Trying to want to stop that at this point, but.
John: Change this rotation into Chat Gpt. There.
Jen: How did it? How did it work.
John: I didn't really.
Jen: You can. It's not. It's open. So it's a creative commons.
John: Okay.
Jen: You can do whatever you want to
Jen: as long as like.
Dave: Creative Commons.
John: These guys.
Dave: Put into Chat. Gbt, that's a really good question. I don't think it does.
Jen: To put it in.
Dave: Don't think a creative commons license gives you the right to put it in Attach ebt.
Jen: Billy.
Jeff: Depends on which one doesn't it?
Jen: Hi!
Jen: Why would it not.
Dave: It, it controls your.
John: Commercially.
Dave: Been
Dave: not where you put it.
Jen: Oh, what are, what are the rights, and what are the, what are the rights given to it? Just to be able? Well, I suppose each license could be different. I've I'd have shit to think about that a little bit.
Dave: Know the answer to that question?
Jeff: We should ask chat jpt.
Dave: Yeah.
Jen: There are different licenses, too, right? Like some you can like.
Jeff: So use.
Jen: That could be more, oh, would that even maybe
Jen: like derivative works and stuff like basically like putting it in there? It will be made in a derivative works.
Dave: Yeah.
Jen: Hmm.
Jen: interesting is anyone following that, though.
Jen: does anyone follow the creative.
John: Be real.
Jen: In general like creative commons. Does anyone actually read which license version of a license.
Dave: Well, no, I mean it's best effort.
Jen: Best effort.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: that's true.
Jen: Alright. Well, Tom's getting food around behind me, or actually.
Dave: Good job, Tom.
Jeff: Papa of the prom goer, feeling.
Dave: It's all good.
Dave: We're plowing on through now. The kids have got so many shows right now.
Dave: They're singing for like 6 h on the weekend
Dave: moms tomorrow. They have 6 h of singing on the weekend, and
Dave: all crazy business right now.
Jen: Still me.
Dave: Madness.
Jen: And did you have graduation yet or no?
Dave: Not to the problem.
John: Late and.
Dave: Graduate.
John: Should.
Dave: Year they finished on the 27, th I think.
Jen: Oh, that's really late.
Jen: Pip.
Jen: Oh, wow! You guys are smarter.
Dave: Only 2 months before we kicked them out.
Dave: On the train. See you later.
Jen: So, where?
John: Thanks. Kate.
Jen: You know where you don't know where.
Dave: I do know where they're going to community college up the way that's the for theater tech program.
Jen: Good. So it's not an airplane situation.
Dave: Is a train that goes almost directly from our door to their door.
Jen: Okay.
Dave: 3 h.
Dave: So, yeah, Cisco.
Jeff: Distance.
Dave: It's far enough away to feel like you're away from home and not so far away that you can't get. You need to.
Dave: Yeah, perfect.
Dave: Yeah. And it's only like.
Jeff: But laundry onto a train.
Dave: One way you're looking at like if you get it at the right time, it's like a 40 buck, $40 train ride. So.
John: Doable.
Dave: Yep.
John: Yeah, that's great.
Dave: Easy drive from here, too, if that comes to that. So
Dave: that's not too bad. And then 2 more years, and we kick the other one out.
Jen: No.
Jen: and then you you can be like my sister. She
Jen: she joined the college, got her Master's Degree where her son went.
Jen: you can see. Oh, I think I need another degree.
Dave: Oh, Hi! I didn't know you were on campus today. Hi!
John: Yeah.
Jen: We're waiting for lunch.
Jen: but.
John: For those who don't spend a lot of time with them. The
John: children in the Cormier household are the 2 most delightful people.
John: And
John: I see no reason to go to Windsor if if they're both gone.
Jeff: I'd say.
Dave: See that I can see that.
Jen: alright. So same time 7. Was it 7 Eastern on Monday night?
Dave: Eastern Monday.
Jeff: Okay, with whichever works best for you guys.
Dave: Separate meetings.
John: 7. Yeah.
John: Seven's good. Yeah.
Jen: That's good for me. You good to hear, Dave.
Dave: Yeah, it's great for me, because the kids are no longer in swimming. They neither drowned nor fit
Dave: accomplished that right.
John: Nice.
Dave: No, it was good.
Jen: Good.
Dave: They persisted as.
Jen: Assisted.
Dave: Yep.
Jeff: All right.
Jen: Alright! That's awesome.
Jeff: See you next month.