Jeff: Hello, and welcome to Ed. Tech. Talks. Ongoing discussion of Dave Cormier's learning in a time of abundance this week.
Jeff: 2 chapters. Chapter 5. Societal implications. Chapter 6, learning to confront uncertainty. That's right. Double episode, no extra charge tonight. We'll be covering classroom problems versus wicked had real life problems.
Jeff: We'll be asking is Dave's post boredom world of abundance. The reason we can't have nice things
Jeff: along the way we might cover gnome carving and something about how Dave and John met on a dating app. So stay tuned. I am Jeff Lebo in pusan Korea.
Jen: My name is Jennifer Mantle, in Chicago, Illinois.
John: This is John Shinker in Stowe, Ohio.
Dave: And I'm Dave Cormier in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.
Jen: Well, that was a lovely introduction, Jeff. Did you have any more? You'd like to kick us off with.
Jeff: And the the people who are viewing on Youtube can see an actual gnome
Jeff: that Dave has apparently carved.
Jen: Oh, cool!
Jeff: And we'll save the dating app story for the post show.
Jeff: But Jen is extra prepared tonight
Jeff: not only in quantity but in speech. She was ready, like
Jeff: hours before.
Jen: I think it was at least 2 h before versus what? 7 min before that would probably even be live for the prior ones. But yeah, we have 2 chapters. We may as well just get right into it right? We've got 57 min now. So yeah. So this one picks up on some of the themes you've talked about in other other chapters. In terms of abundance of information impact. But this time it's as Jeff
Jen: mentioned, the chapter 5 is on the societal implications.
Jen: And so yeah, let's just kind of jump right into it. So one of the things just kind of kick off the chat chat. You're talking about our the shifts in our shared experiences now that we are living in this time of in. I think it's kind of kind of also technology abundance. Right? We'll have a cell phone at our hand at any moment. And how that has shifted our relationships from and interactions from
Jen: few days of old face to face interaction. So to me, that's kind of a good place to start the conversation. So why did you pick this as a thing to talk about pivoting from what we were talking about in pro prior chapters with specifically with the the implications of a abundance of information. And we're kind of talking about from learning and an educations. Perspective.
Jen: This seems to kind of broaden the conversation to societal implications.
Dave: So like, I said last time a lot of these chapters got swoopy swapped throughout the process. I think the reason why I ended up putting this here was what I was trying to do is build a story that you could follow along with
Dave: and sort of at this part. I'm trying to turn from the way that we've learned to, how it impacts us in the real world, because
Dave: ostensibly the book is about how we learn in the real world, not how we learn in school.
Dave: and also how the way we have learned in school affects the way that we learn in the real world.
Dave: You know, it's funny. I was talking to somebody today about
Dave: writing in the professional world in an AI world, and how so much of what you need to do is work after the fact rather than work before the fact.
Dave: So just that difference in like trying to talk to people about
Dave: telling your boss that you're going to need an extra 2 h after you have the product to make sure it's unbiased
Dave: is the whole, it's a whole different way of thinking about learning, producing, and all the rest of that stuff. And if those changes, I think.
Dave: are the ones we need to process
Dave: and we need to process that from a work perspective, but also from a personal perspective. And I think that the example in that 5th chapter
Dave: is around sleepovers, I think.
Dave: and that's the one that sort of really drives it home for me is just watching that transition
Dave: and
Dave: seeing how the technology affects the everyday.
Dave: You know the I think there's there's great value in the lead up to a thing
Dave: where you're sort of thinking your way through. What's gonna happen like I I talked to my kid.
Dave: especially my oldest, about
Dave: what they're going to say when they go into the doctor's office to ask a question.
Dave: and if you're on your phone in the car all the way to the doctor's office, and then you're checking your phone. Once you walk into the doctor's office that preparatory time
Dave: that's built in that boredom time, that downtime where you're just stuck in the car.
Dave: isn't there for you to pre-process the things you're going to do. So that 1st moment of connection doesn't have the same.
Dave: And again, not everybody all the time, obviously. But
Dave: all of those kinds of little pieces, I think, are the ones that really have
Dave: the biggest impact on us. Culturally, in the way that we interact.
Jen: One thing I appreciated about the chapter at least, is my take, and maybe this is not your intention. I didn't think you took necessarily a stand. It's better or worse. I think it's, you know, a lot of it's just it's different. And certainly, as as we go through my questions. We would not all be here. Having this prolonged friendship. And that's what I didn't mean. Talk about to friendship online. When we get into that, too.
Jen: We certainly would not probably have the opportunity to meet with Jeff very often. And then even all of us here in in North America, it would be difficult, so that I certainly think we could make an argument that there's a lot of advantage to the. You know the the better part of the equation. But I'm just kinda curious for the others. On the call kind of loop you in. So what what are your kind of takeaways on the the better or worse of
Jen: face to face versus online. And John, actually, maybe you could talk about how you might be white, because
Jen: let's go back away.
John: How I met my wife. I did remote my wife online in 1990, when she sent me an email
John: which
John: it was. It was just a different.
John: a different world, and yet very much
John: similar to what we see now. You know it's
John: many of the my best friends are people that I've met online. And some of those are people that you know I went, and 3 of them are on this call people that I knew for years before we met face to face, and I don't think
John: I'm pretty sure that there've never been 3 of us in the same place at the same time, I've done 4
John: that you can develop relationships, especially pre social media where?
John: because you're stuck in text and because you are
John: stuck with time between communication, you end up
John: reflecting more and going deeper than doing activities together. You know you, you're not going to a baseball game together. You're not watching a movie together. And so
John: those filler pieces where we don't have to go very deep with with many of our face to face. Friends.
John: I think is different in an online
John: environment, especially in in old days, when we were text based where you know, they can write an email, we can, we can do text chatting, but we have to have something to talk about, and and that gets.
John: you know, into some pretty deep conversations pretty quickly.
John: When you don't have other touch points.
John: So email.
Jeff: 1990 wow.
John: Well, we.
Jeff: I'm not easy to swipe right back. Then.
John: We didn't have web access when we got married. And so we found out, like Deb had posted on a usernet group and mentioned that she got married, and someone said, Oh, yeah, I saw the wedding pictures.
John: and that was news to us, because we didn't have web access, and somebody who was at our wedding, had posted pictures from it.
John: and this person in Australia saw the pictures, and, you know, was
John: was commenting on it. I have no idea. I don't know that I ever saw those, but
John: you know it. It was neat to be connected, and it still need to be connected. I mean, this is, this is amazing stuff, right? When we start a conversation with the 4 of us, and we can't agree on what day it is because we're such diverse places.
John: And we just don't don't even think about it anymore. And and
John: that ability to connect with other people
John: is astounding. It's still astounding. It's 30 years later, and it's still astounding.
Jen: One of my favorite things that I'd love to someday like to share with you guys. I think I've been hundreds, literally hundreds of pages as our Skype text chat.
Jen: For a deck. I think it was pretty darn close to a decade, and so it takes us through birth of children, and you know, changing of jobs and going to school, and just even to being able to have that record is kind of interesting. And I do sometimes go back and go. When did I do this, or when was you know what were our conversations like? And I think that's kind of an interesting.
Jeff: Searchable than box of letters.
Jen: Exactly what's gonna happen to it. One day, you know, when my, you know, I lose my hard driver. I don't know
Jeff: Myself thinking about the nature of shared experiences, and I think sometimes we frame it as like in the past. We had this mass shared experience. The moon landing, or the final episode of whatever team.
Jen: Yeah, final episode of mass, like.
Jeff: I feel like that era was actually the anomaly because we went from very small communities where it was. Your shared experiences were in the village
Jeff: to mass communication, broadening that. And now we're kinda heading back into lots of you know, sub communities that are, you know, technology facilitated. But you know, we've all had very meaningful experiences with our online communities.
Dave: And I would say also that those
Dave: like you say the anomaly
Dave: was something that I was not involved in, that I shared.
Dave: So watching the moon landing, or the last episode, mash. I'm not actually in it.
Jeff: It was Pat writing.
Dave: Watching it.
Dave: That community experience you were talking about from days gone by, and the ones that that we've been part of here
Dave: are ones that we actually were part of
Dave: right. We're part of the community. We're not on the outside looking in.
Dave: So
Dave: I really do think that you know, there's a
Dave: Walter Hong talks about a return to orality.
Dave: I really do feel that there's a there's a potential there. We just don't have our literacy sort of lined up yet where print the the idea of writing puts things makes things stale and static right like once it's written, it's done.
Dave: whereas
Dave: this
Dave: can be something that happens. Live like you can have this interaction. I mean, Jeff. You're the probably the 1st person to talk to me about this. Just the power of webcasting what it can do to bring people together. And the idea of people being able to talk and across cultures. And we had tons of those experiences with a tech talk where you do crazy connections between different groups that came together.
Dave: And I think there is a difference between
Dave: knowledge being chopped up into little tiny bits and thrown into a book.
Dave: and being able to see the look on someone's face when they say it.
Dave: You know, I think those are different things, fundamentally different things.
Dave: And there is definitely
Dave: potential. I just think.
Dave: hard to get there.
John: It was Jeff who said, everybody should have a radio station like everybody couldn't do this. It's not
John: not call. Everybody can be a publisher. Everybody can be a broadcaster
John: and yet here we are talking about the book, right? I mean, we could read the book
John: we could, you know, every everybody watching could read the book, and probably
John: have a more
John: cohesively formulated and well articulated version of what we're talking about right now. And yet here we are, because
John: that interaction around a topic and around a subject is more engaging, that
John: lots of words, and not very many pictures.
Jeff: And we just wanted to re have a reunion, you know.
John: Of course, of course.
Jen: We can have another hiatus soon, right.
John: Yeah.
Jen: Get it, dammit.
John: We're gonna do this week, and we're gonna do next week. And then we're gonna wait for Jen's book.
Jen: That's right. It'll be my text chat. I'm just gonna put all the text chat from but you mentioned something to. It's kind of take us in a slightly different direction. You mentioned as you were talking about this idea of boredom and the association between that and creativity. So yeah. So you know, certainly we all have.
Jen: I? I'm sure it's not some form of online addiction. So I go to bed every night and watch my Tiktoks, and you know, would I? My time be better spent if I had something else that was more? I don't know something else to to, not necessarily distract me from the realities of life. So what? What were your kind of thoughts on? On? Why, you put that in the chapter.
Dave: John, I need to know what's on your face. 1st
Dave: you get that confusing look on your face over there. You okay.
John: I'm fine, I'm fine. My mind was wandering just a second there. I was thinking about what Jen was saying, and and the idea that the content never ends. And so we we keep scrolling forever, because the pay we never get to the bottom of the page.
Jen: Sure. Yeah.
John: And you know that
John: that compulsive addictive behavior, I think, is just as bad as
John: You know that that that's probably one of the components of social media that that is perhaps more harmful than many of the others, and that
John: it never stops.
Jeff: And I'd like to thank Dave for score last night. I have the bad habit of scrolling before bed, and it keeps me up too late, and often I don't drift off to sleep quickly, whereas last night I was reading Dave's book.
Jen: Thank you.
John: Gets the end of that chapter.
Jeff: Well, sound like.
Jen: Yeah, that was my question.
John: Why this chapter so?
John: But still.
Jen: Please snake.
Dave: Wow! I see it's like that, is it?
Jen: Yeah.
Jeff: Nothing personal. But I just that prod. There was a finish line and.
John: Did you use AI to summarize the chapter? So you'd have to read the whole thing.
Jeff: No! I actually read the whole thing. Oh.
Dave: I think that
Dave: that I think that's really I think the the fact that it doesn't have an end is really, I mean, I think most of us probably have a memory at least once, staying up late and trying to finish book
Dave: right where you go, read it, read it, and read it, read it, and don't want to put it down and read it. But you know eventually, if it's 2 nights or 3 nights, or whatever it is that there's going to be an end to it, and eventually you won't be able to keep reading that book. It's gonna get down, put down.
Dave: Whereas
Dave: with this stuff he could just
Dave: there's no and it's weirdly it gets better the more you do it.
Dave: Because it gets further and further refined. And it gets further and further tuned to what you're doing. And I think you know.
Dave: boredom's a really weird piece, and it's it's
Dave: there are times I argue for a little tongue in cheek, just because it gets people like it sort of tosses them out of their sort of
Dave: perspectives on things. But I really do believe that
Dave: that quiet time is effective, that it does good things for people, but it gives them a chance not just to be creative, whatever that means, and I'm not.
Dave: And what part of the culture creativity you think so we all need to be great creators. Me to, you know, go for better progress.
Dave: But I think getting us getting us that time to sort of think over the things that are important in our lives, to sort of work through that stuff
Dave: and like, I said, with with my child like, just prepare to go and talk to the doctor just all those sort of interstitial pieces.
Dave: Allow you to better socialize.
Dave: And I'm not saying that kids don't socialize online because I know they do
Dave: but the rules are different, right? And the rules are so intense, so like. I was talking to younger child last night.
Dave: and she was like.
Dave: I have a a bunch of friends who don't like being left on, delivered.
Dave: not on red, and for those of you are not familiar with the distinction on red means. I looked at your message and decided not to respond undelivered means. It arrived on my device, regardless of whether I picked it up or not.
Dave: and there's an expectation
Dave: that I should not leave you undelivered.
Dave: Right? So even if I put my phone in another room at some point in in the 20 min, I should go check it, just in case you might have contacted me
Dave: right. And that
Dave: leaves you at a constant state
Dave: of that kind of micro anxiety of knowing there's something you're supposed to do.
Dave: And suddenly your friendships become obligations.
Dave: right? Not necessarily bad obligations, not even obligations. You don't fulfill, but it's a constant
Dave: but 24 7, you know you're supposed to be checking.
John: What about?
Dave: Right before you go to bed. And right when you wake up in the morning.
John: We're back to synchronous right? Except that it's it's synchronous, as always. You know, I've I've always hated telephones because the idea of
John: calling someone is is. Whatever I have to say to you is more important than anything you could possibly be doing right now. You need to stop your life and talk to me. And I've always hated that
John: and so the Internet has helped me avoid that by going ace. I'll send you a text message and you'll respond to it
John: when you respond to it or email is is the same way when you get to that point where the expectation is that you'll. But it's been like 7 min, and Dave hasn't responded yet. You know
John: that we've lost something when we go there.
Jen: I think, too, also like the the distraction of it, like I was just thinking about. I'm like looking at my. I have a la Monitor. That doesn't count. But I have a laptop. I have my phone and I have my apple watch so all 3 can give me my updates of my text messages. Let me know in an email. So it's kind of hard to just have time, whether I'm bored or not focused, you know. Get into a flow state, or whatever, when I'm working on something. When
Jen: you know, off on the side, I feel a little green, you know, message, or whatever. And I don't know if that ties into what you're saying about the border. But even just kind of this time, where you're just allowed to focus. And just so like, think about something that is not someone feeding you, something that you should be addicted watching and
Jen: hitting that. Yeah.
Dave: Talking last week about the students who struggle with sculpture right
Dave: to go over a length of time.
Dave: and how
Dave: professors of the university are finding that
Dave: that ability to stay in
Dave: to the design work in some of the creative courses is seems to be more of a struggle and still wonder
Dave: right? It's no wonder if you're constantly breaking out like, if you're constantly chopping up the work you do.
Dave: Those of us like me who write in short, bursts, it's not as big a problem. I've always written a short burst before and after
Dave: the Internet. So like I'm I'm probably amongst the least attend a a affected by this, because my attention is only so.
Dave: what like? I'm only so
Dave: dialed in at any given time. But for people who need that
Dave: like focus. There's not a lot of chances to actually practice culturally.
Dave: and we certainly tried to set up scenarios for our own kids in our own house, where they actually have that that chance.
Jeff: That's what I was wondering about. How the parents in this conversation mediated the process of
Jeff: helping their kids learn to deal with this lack of boredom and endless stimuli and addiction culture, and how you modeled it.
Dave: We were doing better before Covid
Dave: Covid wrecked or approaches to that.
Dave: because we're all stuck in the house like all the time.
Jen: And that's how you can connect with people right?
John: Right.
John: I think we've always struggled with the moderation piece and the the quiet time piece we were much better when the kids were smaller.
John: I I think we're lazier now. We're like watching videos more now. And you know, there's a TV.
Jeff: Pretty much.
John: Yeah, yeah, 20.
John: There'll be 25 and 23 this summer. So
John: I know. Sorry it's crazy.
John: you know, there are activities in the house that are unplugged.
John: you know. Mo, both of my kids were musicians growing up. There's music in the house all the time.
John: you know. Cord books are on paper on purpose, because you're not grabbing a device and following like you're you get off the Internet and play some music.
John: I think with when the kids were smaller.
John: It was
John: some restrictions on screen time, and we weren't crazy or billeting about it. But it was certainly a you know. You're not taking a phone, especially smartphones. Once they were old enough to have them.
John: you're not taking that up to your room at night because you'll be on it all night.
John: you know. So making some of some limitations like that, keeping them in public places and and in the house, and charging them
John: on the 1st floor instead of the second floor.
John: Helped. I think maybe
John: our our kids are less.
John: I think, less compulsive about their technology use than their parents are.
John: Maybe that's because their parents are. I don't know. You know
John: I would love to have never smoked cause my dad did. My dad never drank, because it's funny.
Jeff: Otherwise yes.
John: Yeah, right.
Jen: I'll say that again, John. I didn't reset John.
John: I said, I I've never smoked because my dad was a chain smoker. He never drank because his father was an alcoholic. My kids stay off the Internet because their parents, you know, Dave's. Dave's kids probably do the same thing.
Dave: One and one.
John: Yeah.
Jen: So, okay, so we've talked a little bit. I'm making a segue now to abundance abundance of connections. We've talked about like our small little group, and even at tech talk, is relatively small. But so how has it affected you as a group? This is a question to everybody. About having
Jen: the ability to. I think I have. I don't even know how many thousands of friends that friends I have on Linkedin, and how many connections, or whatever on twitter like? What does that abundance mean in in both a positive and a negative
Jen: aspect?
Jen: Sneak.
Dave: What's funny? The anthropologists will tell us you can have a hundred 50 friends. That's the sort of
Dave: I certainly have
Dave: more people than that that I care about.
Dave: but I can't always remember who they are
Dave: like. If you ask me to list them right right now, it'd be a struggle, but like
Jen: Well, let me know what on you, but.
John: You got in trouble?
John: In the book, because the acknowledgments left like.
Dave: That is it.
John: People out, and they were.
John: They were hurt by that.
Jen: I was gonna say, to think back, pre twitter. When we all had a huge rss feed of blogs, we read very often. You didn't know the person, but you need the title of their blog, or maybe with the page or the you know, the wordpress theme they used, or whatever it might be.
Jen: So I you know, if I had to answer my own question. To your point, Dave. I there's no way I quote no 150
Jen: like and I couldn't call contact them. They think I was weird. If I picked up the phone and tried to call them like the people that I would follow on their blogs. But I would regularly read. And had they had profound impact on me. For example, people like that, I'm just gonna name something like David Wiley. And
Jen: folks that you know 1st started to talk about open education and new things that have like fundamentally changed the way I view topics, and where I've put my interest and things like that. If I just stayed in my little town of Lode, I, Wisconsin, I grew up in.
Jen: I wouldn't have had a a any of these connections, and so, from a positive standpoint, I don't even know how I would begin to even qualify what is meant to me.
Jen: In my life, you know, being able to have those connections.
John: I guess I had
John: looking back on it now. I had arbitrary rules for different services, you know, Linkedin.
John: My rule with Linkedin was that I had to know the person in order to add them to Linkedin. So you know. And typically, those are professional contacts, and they're relatively, most of them are geographically pretty close, because if I haven't met them or haven't worked with them, I'm not adding them as a friend on Linkedin, and that was just something I started when I started Linkedin, and I've kind of stuck to that. So
John: that number is much smaller for me. Facebook was always personal, and Twitter was always more or less professional.
John: And I used Twitter as a way
John: to curate
John: content and so differentiating between the people I learn from, and the people who learn from me and treating those as 2 different groups. Was important to me, because I never felt that.
John: you know, just because I follow you, because I find that the stuff you post is valuable to me. That doesn't necessarily mean that you should be following me. And so in some cases there, there's a symbiotic relationship there. In other cases there, there never was
John: and so kind of as a result of that, I never really focused on who was following me.
John: I was curating the stuff that showed up in my feedback when we had control over those things, and if I had something to share, I would share it. And if people found value in that great and if not
John: fine
John: you know I'm I'm screaming into the vastness of the Internet.
John: But but my need was more.
John: I know this cool thing, and I want to share it. And so I would share it, and it didn't matter as much
John: who was reading that.
John: My blog's like that, you know. Nobody reads my blog.
Jen: I think, but you have 20.
John: Later still posting there because it's my need to share. It's not
John: for an audience.
Jen: I think we have a new section for this section for the next next edition of your book. It's curating your connections. I think you just said.
Jen: Something along the lines of that. And I think that's kind of the strategy. I think you hear a lot of folks
Jen: do right, you, curate, based on kind of where you want to spend your time.
John: One right.
Jeff: See different layers for.
John: Frustration. Go ahead, Jeff.
Jeff: I see different layers of connection. There's the people that I know from real life that I stay in better touch with. Last weekend was my 40th High School reunion. I don't know how those people got so old
Jeff: and like I was able to sort of, you know, join not join remotely, but be part of that experience.
Jeff: The probably one of the biggest differences is the people that I do know in real life. I've been able to stay much more connected with because of social media living afar the there there is that world of like people I kinda know that I tune into. But then there's a much smaller core of actual
Jeff: online based connections like you guys that have impacted my life.
Jeff: But for me, that's a relatively small.
Jen: So do you use Linkedin Jeff? Or do you ever.
Jeff: Yes, I have many connections.
Jeff: and I
Jeff: go there to say, Okay, y'all connect with you, too.
Jeff: But I don't really tune in much.
John: Sure.
Jen: Yes.
Jen: Any cameras already.
Jeff: Oh, the other. The other thing is, students, it has allowed me to stay connected with students. Not all, you know. All of them are the majority of them. But that's been a really nice thing is to see my students journey after they leave the classroom, and I have stayed in touch with some of them, and that has actually been a very nice.
Jeff: meaningful little slice of the pie.
Jen: Did you have anything on that day
Jen: before we move on.
Jeff: Has we learned to say? I don't know, or I have no.
Jen: He doesn't know how about Twitter. I think probably of all of us you probably were the most active on Twitter. How is that? I don't wanna say the demise because it's still going on. But how is the fundamental shift in Twitter?
Jen: Not even call Twitter anymore? How's that?
Dave: No.
Jen: Impacted.
Dave: I mean that community, that community is gone. So it's slittered out in a number of different directions, and I now find myself scattered across 17 different platforms, trying to keep track of
Dave: the people that I talked to centrally on Twitter.
Dave: So I literally message somebody on Linkedin the other day about
Dave: a presentation they wanted to do for shrub con, and she said, I can't do
Dave: the messaging here. Contact me on signal.
Dave: and I'm like.
John: Any.
Dave: And so that makes the I think it's the 8th platform I'm using
Dave: to contact people in various ways about the conference.
John: So it's like, it's.
Dave: 2 years ago. I just would have done it on Twitter.
John: It's Jeff saying, Hey, look! Look at the new video conferencing app. I found that we're going to break this week.
John: Let's you know, Jennifer, signing up for stuff, and realizing she already has an account.
Dave: Well.
Jeff: And I.
Dave: And I'm missing the responses back from them, right? So I don't use signals. So I didn't check, and I, missy wrote back on Friday, and then I didn't see it. And it's just
Dave: that whole
Dave: community that grew together sort of just
Dave: went off to the wins. And different groups have held together in different ways.
Dave: But
Dave: yeah, it's been a real disruption of my ability to get work done.
Dave: I think it's.
Jen: Okay.
John: It's also harder to connect the tools together than it used to be. You know, one of the one of the cool things that I actually like about Facebook is the memories piece of Facebook. But because I had Twitter and Facebook tied together, I get memories on my tweets because they were cross posted to Facebook.
John: you know, because
John: the social media companies have started building silos. They they're not as good at allowing you to
John: share data between them. And so you can't set up a way for signal messages to notify you on one of the 15 platforms that you're actually using every day.
John: You have to
John: individually check them all.
John: and that's more fragmentation.
Jeff: I have an Ed tech weekly type of question. Do you guys know anything about noster.
Jen: -
Jeff: Supposedly one app to rule them all.
Jen: So does it. Does it aggregate that everything or
Jeff: Simple protocol for decentralizing social media.
Jen: Oh!
John: Okay.
Jeff: But we'll save that for the at Tech Weekly.
Jen: Was going to get.
John: I don't know that social media wants to be decentralized.
Dave: What I will say is that Linkedin has solved some of the later problems that we had on Twitter.
Dave: So
Dave: from 2014, 2015 things started to go in terms of tone
Dave: and just people's approach to things
Dave: and
Dave: doing work at the last
Dave: year. Say way more work on Linkedin than I've ever done before.
Dave: having it tied to people's professional
Dave: home bases really does.
John: Not anonymous anymore.
Dave: Really does change, not even just the not anonymous. So there are people who are not anonymous.
Dave: whose names I knew.
Dave: who were aggressive on Twitter, who had never considered doing it on Linkedin
Dave: just because it traces back to their jobs because they figured nobody was watching anyone else there. Right?
Dave: So it does mean that the con, the tone of the conversations is much better
Dave: overall.
Dave: They're a little stiffer.
Jen: As you say, plastic is what like comes to mind.
Dave: Less. So, I think in the last
Dave: there are large sections of the education community that's moved over to Twitter. And it's having the impact. It's getting a little bit
Dave: looser. It's getting a little bit more flexible, a little less plastic.
Jen: So why do you think Macedon didn't take off is it just too hard? The learning, I mean, even though it's not huge. But even the learning curve to like
Jen: find people and.
Dave: Yeah, I was kind of the
Dave: it was the
Dave: bounce back boyfriend, right? Like it was the
Dave: as a rebound boyfriend. I think that probably hurt it as well. Everybody was like, Oh, yeah, we're gonna go there and.
Jen: Yeah, it just seems like it should be, you know, because you kind of get to choose your own adventure to some extent, or choose like where you put yourself.
Dave: Nobody wants right.
Jen: Yeah, people don't right like it sounds like it's a great thing. But.
Dave: That's why Twitter was the
Dave: for. However, you believe in the mythology of how Twitter was started. That's what's so brilliant about it like John said earlier, like you don't even have to know the person you're following. All you have to do is click, follow, and then type in the box that's there. Hit, go, and there's nothing else you need to do
Dave: right. And so the
Dave: the barrier to entry is so low.
Dave: and the barrier to return is so low that it's it makes it really easy to interact.
Jeff: I am learning.
Dave: And finally.
Jeff: One of the things about Dave from his Linkedin page. I had no idea that he had a fish culture license.
Dave: I do.
Dave: I do.
Dave: I should really take that off of there.
Jen: Why it's about you.
Dave: Oh, no! It was me testing the micro credential system.
Jen: Awful!
John: How, how has fish culture been affected by social media.
Dave: Well, they school around a little more. I don't know.
Jen: I don't know.
Dave: There was a joke there somewhere, but I mean.
John: Move.
Jen: But this actually is I I think I let me see if I can try to bring this back together, because there is a section of this chapter where you talk about I think, especially now, from what we're talking with as a segue of, like, we had this one mass community. And now we're finding all these different places like kind of the the good and the bad, and actually in some respects, frightening aspects of some of our conversations. Now being so, focused, and with a small group of all the thing, and thinking the same thing. And what are the implications of that.
Dave: Was that a question.
Jen: It's just a statement, sort of.
Dave: Are terrifying like, if you look at how quickly somebody can get radicalized right now, and the ways that their communities insulate, it's just it's astonishing.
Dave: And again, I think that
Dave: sneaking ahead to the next chapter here.
Dave: The idea that there's 1 answer and that someone's going to give it to me
Dave: is the thing that I think influences the way a lot of these communities work. So people go looking for answers, they find someone who's willing to give it to them, and then they accept it, and that as long as everybody inside of there agrees, it starts to becomes more and more true, the longer they talk about it. Right?
Dave: And.
Jen: Same time. Isn't Mr. Bridges? How many bridges did you have.
Dave: Lot of bridges.
Jen: 200 bridges overall. That was the idea that right, that everybody would have like a niche thing kind of.
Jeff: That there'd be a space for all different types of conversations. Yeah.
Jen: So what is the yeah, what's like? How did we go from like, let's have a a knitting group, too. But.
Jeff: But you know that was very valuable.
Jen: Okay.
Jeff: No, they were world bridges, community. And you know we spent time. I spent time thinking about what are the norms and what kinds of conversations, and would not hesitate to say, Nope, that's not world, bridgy.
Jeff: and the community decides what's World bridgey or not?
Jeff: And
Jeff: you know some platforms do that more than others. It seems to be the the lack of the clarity of the values and the norms that create a lot of the problems.
Jen: Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. And the fact that we just don't know how to talk about values right? Like, I think that that's 1 of the biggest issues.
Dave: Chapter 6,
Dave: is that.
Jeff: This doesn't have to be linear. We can talk about them.
Dave: No, no, no, but we're not accustomed to doing it. So one of the things I really value didn't actually again learn from you, Jeff.
Dave: is how to talk about values at a community overtly. So I remember
Dave: trying to figure out why farc.com worked
Dave: is one of those 1st things that I tried to figure out about communities online, because an extraordinarily successful community that seemed to have
Dave: like hundreds of little unwritten rules that were sort of vaguely policed. But after a while you could see, there's actually a very overt policing that's happening.
Dave: And it all came from. I think the guy's name is Drew and he set people in charge of
Dave: moderating, and he gave them very specific guidelines to work from.
Dave: I don't necessarily agree with those guidelines.
Dave: But it's that sort of overt statement of this is who we are is something that again going back to what Jeff was talking about earlier, those communities from long ago. We didn't have to have that conversation.
Dave: If there's a hundred 50 of us living in a village somewhere in Northern Alberta.
Dave: We don't have to renegotiate what we are as a community every year
Dave: like you. You just don't need to. You have it, and you've inherited.
John: You establish your norms over time, and then people either conform to that or they get ostracized.
Dave: In, their.
Jeff: And they get tweaked along the way.
Dave: Yeah, yeah.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
Dave: On a like long scale. Yeah.
Dave: right? And so the vast majority of people are not involved in that tweaking.
Dave: There may be some leadership. Things there may be like a flood that happened and changes people's perspectives on things or whatever. But
Dave: everyday people are policing existing values, not talking about the ones they have and how they're different from somebody else.
Dave: And as we multiculturally here in Canada, we call it. But as we come together across cultures, and my values are different than your values.
Dave: That starts to get
Dave: you you. There's a lot of friction there, right between those those sort of comparative values.
Dave: I was telling stories the other day about being in Korea
Dave: and having this, this guy who ran a hotel, a yoga huguant no yoga that I was living in so hotel that I was living in
Dave: slap me in the head probably 5 times
Dave: in the span of one night, because I kept doing things wrong.
Dave: so I would like drink before him, or I would like, there's a there's a series of rules that I was definitely doing wrong, and he was quite cheerful about it, like he wasn't. He wasn't being mean, or whatever else a totally normal process smack in the head.
Jeff: Despite.
Dave: And the puppy
Dave: right. He was just. He was being really sweet about it, actually, but it was getting smacked in the head. And he was trying to explain to me what the social conve, what the rules, what the values were, and what I was, how I was supposed to be respecting him.
Dave: and how that was supposed to work.
Dave: And it's not like a lack of respect for humans. But there's a very specific way of doing it that we all culturally understand inside of our own sort of spaces.
Dave: But one of the advantages for me having gone abroad is, I got a chance to get smacked in the head enough
Dave: to maybe knock me out of my own space a little bit.
John: So you recognize that different communities have different rules, and they're not all the same rules as
John: New Brunswick.
Dave: But the almost the whole time I was in Korea.
Dave: That lovely old man is one of the very, very few people who ever tried to explain it to me.
Dave: and I was super privileged to have met him very early on, because he explained a lot of things that people just expect me to know.
Dave: and it's that sort of willingness to explain your values. I mean, you can ease up on the smack in the head.
Dave: But explain your values is something that a lot of people just aren't in the habit of doing. He
Dave: had been
Dave: Ean, I think, during the Korean War.
Dave: and he'd had some experience around in in that city and in Korea. There's more experience with the American military, more experience across cultures, and he'd work with the American military
Dave: and had that sort of. I'm going to explain this to you so that you understand what's happening. Sort of practice.
Jeff: When I think about the common values of most of our social media platforms, and certainly our media and some part of our educational world. The most common value is maximizing shareholder value.
John: Oh!
Jeff: So like, if we're expecting Facebook or Twitter, any of them to like, say, Okay, we're going to take the high ground here.
Jeff: It's all about maximizing engagement and profit
Jeff: right? Right?
Jen: I think that also is why, like masted on is so decentralized, and there is no
Jen: elon musk running mastodon. So I think, Jeff, you would. I'm kind of making a a connection to something you used to say, too, like there needs to be at some level on some of these like a benevolent dictator, that is
Jen: and to your point, like some, especially.
John: Oh! And.
Jen: Was it at a profit motive that's keeping someone in interested in being engaged to be that benevolent, or maybe just plain dictator, not a benevolent one. But is it? Does that help to keep
Jen: large scale communities? Going to their profit motive motive? Because if it's not there, it just becomes too decentralized. I don't know.
Jen: It's a thought. It's not a question that you can answer. If you.
John: We can take.
Jen: Swing at it
Jen: like, do you think that's a bad thing?
Dave: Motive. Certainly the profit motive
Dave: is the one that's the easiest to understand.
Dave: and the easiest one to maintain over time.
Dave: So, like, I remember.
Dave: we were in
Dave: Delhi
Dave: 2012,
Dave: and
Dave: the government was working with local entrepreneurs, trying to reach out Mooc wise
Dave: into some of the less developed parts of the country.
Dave: And their argument was that
Dave: if we have
Dave: purely profit motive, they're just gonna sell it and move on. And if we have a purely
Dave: like social outreach motive.
Dave: Then that will just get caught up in government bureaucracy. And so they wanted to try to blend the 2 together.
Dave: I don't know that we have effective models for that, either. It didn't work there.
Dave: that's not to say it's not possible. But it's certainly it's such a subtle piece right like.
Dave: how do you consistently go back to your board and say, well, I know it's gonna cost us money, and this probably won't work. But let's go and take this chance to go and help those people over there.
Dave: So governments are for ostensibly.
John: Dave, what about? What about Wikipedia
John: and the Norms? There.
Dave: I think Wikipedia has wrecked more communities than any other
Dave: thing that's happened on the Internet.
Dave: I think more people have tried to copy their model.
Dave: and I don't think it's a real model. I think they got extraordinarily lucky.
Dave: and anytime we look at it as a way of doing things. We're hoping for something that's never gonna happen again.
Jeff: Convinced me that that was a look I I.
Jen: Giving, a look.
Jeff: Yeah, like, what?
Dave: Never even intended to do it.
Jeff: Okay. But like they have a system, it's working. Why is it so hard to replicate.
Dave: They fell into the system like they didn't develop that system. That was the one they just cut like
Dave: he was like, Well, you you do it, and it just kind of evolved that way.
Dave: But it evolved because it had never been done, and there was a real need for that thing.
Jeff: It doesn't work, because there's someone who's willing to pay the bills and keep the lights on without becoming a billionaire.
Jen: Benevolent dictator.
John: Like Jeff.
Jeff: One or some group.
John: Like Jeff.
Dave: I think that there are many other people who are willing to do that, who have tried to go down the Wikipedia road of having a large community of people support something that large and have failed
Dave: because
Dave: trying to keep people's
Dave: focus on one thing like you creating something that is that huge and so that identity bound. I don't even think you can do it on the Internet now.
Dave: like, I think the time of building those things is done
Dave: because it is so cute.
Jeff: Kind of the 1st one of the 1st major players in that space. And so like, there's not gonna be a major.
Dave: 1st out, and it.
Jeff: Editor.
John: It didn't have to be huge when they created it, they could grow. It.
Dave: Well, they got a.
John: Like, now.
Dave: Software, then too.
John: Yeah. But now you can't create something and get enough traction.
John: because it's just.
John: you know, overwhelmed by all the giant things that are already there.
John: Yep.
Jen: Which is sort of I can maybe make it try my hand here in a segue. In in chapter chapter 6,
Jen: this idea of authority and uncertainty cause, I know certainly using the Wikipedia example. If I have a question, I very often will go to Wikipedia, and at least point me in the right direction. We're, you know, some thoughts on that topic, or whatever and JD. You mentioned the pandemic today and other times we've been here. But
Jen: how does this all tie in with the the issues of UN, you know.
Jen: abundance, uncertainty, and then authority. And where we get our.
Jen: how we actually how even how we treat that, I'm thinking fauci was in front of Congress this past week.
Jen: for his efforts during the the pandemic, and
Jen: and how those efforts are perceived.
Dave: Being terrible to that poor man.
Dave: so
Dave: I'll try not to be too boring. But I am sorry, Jeff, this will not be under a minute.
Dave: Okay.
Jeff: Really.
Dave: So you see an increasing history inside, particularly in the United States coming out of the American Air Force and the Rand Corporation towards problem based problem solving approaches.
Dave: And so increasingly through our sort of thoughts about education. As we try to be more evidence based.
Dave: we move towards this idea of things being measurable in a way that we can actually verify, and seeing things that are measurable and verifiable as better than those things that are ephemeral and judgment based.
Dave: Because you can't do. They look at no child left behind as a birth example. Right? So you've got the extreme testing model that you send out so that you're trying to raise test scores, which, again.
Dave: is an artifice that you're trying to raise, not
Dave: happiness or learning, but test scores
Dave: right? And so that whole problem solving right? Answer, test building sort of has an impact on a culture is the argument that I make it.
Dave: And
Dave: the
Dave: the idea somehow is that every problem that you're given as a student has an answer, and that answer is something the teacher already knows
Dave: so fundamentally the game of school is.
Dave: I have a pro. You give me a problem. I do the thing I'm supposed to do, and I hand back the answer to you. So the argument I'm making is 2 fold, one
Dave: wicked problems or real life problems.
Dave: aren't
Dave: solvable in that way. Right? So when somebody tells me what I should be doing for climate change. It's like, I can't solve the climate crisis, and no one can solve the climate crisis because even defining the climate crisis, you try to define it. You leave something out
Dave: right, same as when you talk about
Dave: poverty in a city, or any of those kinds of big problems that we have in our cultures. Defining them is changes them even in in the process of doing that. And what you see
Dave: people wanting to do inside of schools is to come up with scenarios that allow you to sort of lock. Step your way through a process right? So that I can know whether or not you've gotten it right. And the argument that I'm making is that instills in you the belief that you can get things right. And the argument. The story that I tell in the book is about one of my students who
Dave: told me that I was the that that I was asking his opinion. He didn't believe me, because no adult had ever asked him a question without already knowing the answer.
Dave: Right like that idea that there is an answer becomes ingrained in the idea of what it means to learn.
Dave: So if somebody is giving you an answer, you're more likely to believe them, whereas if somebody goes well, it kind of depends. You think they know less about the issue.
Dave: Right? So if somebody responds to you with nuance, it's actually worse.
Dave: So
Dave: I just got this book in the mail
Dave: a couple days ago.
Dave: It's a really great. She does a really great job of talking about how this works in medicine.
Dave: So
Dave: doctors, when they 1st go into hospitals.
Dave: think that when they have a patient who they can't figure out the answer to, they figure it's something they don't know.
Dave: Rather than
Dave: that there isn't an answer to the problem that's wrong with the patient.
Dave: And so it turns back on them all the time. So one of her responses to
Dave: teaching medical students to be more prepared for uncertainty is what they call gray cases, and their cases without answers that you need to engage with and process your way through
Dave: in those that preparation for uncertainty
Dave: is
Dave: allows maybe
Dave: people to hear people with the right answers, maybe.
Dave: and trust them a little bit less, and trust the nuance a little bit more
Dave: right. And for me, that's that's the big distinction.
Dave: If
Dave: I'm going to enter into a values conversation with you.
Dave: The thing that we're talking about
Dave: has to be uncertain.
Dave: So we're trying to decide what's the best way to
Dave: facilitate an important community conversation. If there's only one answer.
Dave: there's no need for us to have a values conversation.
Dave: there's no space for it. One of us is right, which everyone is louder, probably.
Dave: Whereas if we accept that, it's possible for multiple perspectives inside of a given issue, not you can have a perspective that's different from mine until it convinced you otherwise.
Dave: but actually contain multiple perspectives.
Dave: Then we can have difficult discussions with each other without just fighting our way through it.
Dave: But the argument here is that our education system has locked us into this idea that problems have answers.
Dave: so that when we're talking. We're not trying to figure out your perspective and see how that blends together and sort of whatever we're just trying to figure out which one of us is right.
Jen: And this may not even be a function of abundance of information, which is maybe where we're at
Jen: in society I don't know but.
Jen: you were saying like the student didn't like. Well, I don't know if they didn't like they were taken aback that you didn't come from position of. I have the answer that you need to tell me back.
Jen: But I think we're kind of seeing that across the board with all experts, and then with all traditional bodies of authority or expertise? Is there such a lack of trust? And maybe that a lot of that has come out of the pandemic. We remember 2 in 2 weeks. We're supposed to flatten the curve and then and then we'd all get back to life as normal. And that didn't happen then it's like, and I don't believe anything you're telling me from here on that week.
Jeff: Think about the pandemic, and it was a time of uncertainty where we wanted answers.
Jen: They wanted.
Jeff: And.
Jen: And if they weren't, and if they weren't right, right, answers.
Jeff: And the answer is.
Jen: Pandemic, and then.
Jeff: We're not
Jeff: in the long term correct, or they were a little like the the not wearing masks. When the pandemic happened, they said, Oh, yeah, don't worry. You don't need to like 3 billion people in Asia with huh?
John: And you told us about that at the time, because we met early in the pandemic. And Jeff
John: kind of gently said, Yeah, your government is lying to you because they're telling you things that you are willing to hear.
Jeff: And because they were trying to save them for the medical workers, which.
John: Right right? We don't have enough masks, so you don't need to wear them, plus. You're not allowed to leave your house anyway. So
John: like, let's not create panic and hoarding.
John: And also, if we told everybody they had to wear masks for the next 3 years.
John: they would reject the whole thing, and just say it's a hopeless cost.
Jen: Yeah. But I do think this. Yeah, this this
Jen: shift from relying on these authoritative sources to, as you were saying before, Dave, we've got these splintered communities. And then you have, like different thought leaders and all the communities. And then things can kinda go off into in different directions. So one of the questions I had for the group and and, Dave, I don't know. Send it to this spoken about directly.
Jen: Is there any positive to the fact that we do have all these splintered communities and those communities can also go viral with counter programming. Or, you know, fact checking like, is there
Jen: a role for that? As well? You know we certainly have snopes or things like that. But is that a positive.
Dave: I think it's interesting. You went to fact checking.
Dave: because again, I think there are lots of things that are facts and right are right or wrong, but I don't think those are the ones that get us into the most trouble.
Dave: I think the ones that get us in the most trouble are things like the effectiveness of wearing masks. It's a great.
Jen: Example.
Dave: Our masks 100% effective.
Dave: No.
Dave: How would that? What would that even mean? Of course not.
Dave: But
Dave: statistically overall. And then there's a whole bunch of other nuance that you have to explain to say why it's better to wear them than not, and
Dave: the the simple fact is, so we'd all be healthier if we wore them all the time.
Dave: but no one wants to say that.
Dave: So then you're kind of stuck in this, and then somebody says, Well, shall I wear them or not? Because they want an answer?
Dave: Right? And so
Dave: I think, from a fact perspective, we're in much better shape than we used to be.
Dave: Right. I think that you follow the sift method, or whatever else. If you're using the Internet to any degree, you can get your way around. Whether or not something is if something is actually true or false, and you're actually willing to find it, you can actually find it.
Dave: It's anything in between. That's the problem.
Jeff: And values come into play here. Also, I can tell you about 20% of my students usually wear masks.
Jeff: Some of them are sick. Some didn't do their makeup. There's no shame there's no value judgment here about it.
Jeff: and I don't think that's happening in other places.
Jeff: Nope.
Dave: One in a hundred.
John: Happening in the Us.
Dave: One and a hundred here, maybe a little more, a little less. Be one and 2.
Jen: Oh, you can go to a hospital and see 0. I, you know, are there lots of sick people that
Jen: should be protecting themselves and potentially protecting others in there, and Chicago absolutely.
Dave: There's great value just to answer Jen's question. I think there's great value in the Ver. Particularly we're talking about voices from the margins like when people get a chance to talk about their cultural perspective on things.
Dave: Again, I just don't think we're ready to hear it.
Dave: because the the
Dave: that
Dave: we need the humility to not be convinced that our perspective is right just because it's ours. We need to know how to trust, how to deal with those things, and we need to be able to discuss with our values.
Dave: we don't have those
Dave: taught to us as part of how you learn.
Dave: We're taught backwards. We're taught facts 1st and nuance later.
Dave: And to me it should be the other way around
Dave: that we should be taught the nuance 1st and the facts later.
Dave: Right? So we should be learning with that nuance, so that when we get confronted with anything new
Dave: from a different community, who says, I want to
Dave: dance in this way. We're like, you know, what? I really appreciate that. But it's just not my kind of dancing.
Dave: Is fine. It's a great response.
Dave: It's not wrong dancing.
Dave: but it's not my like. It's that sort of that transition.
Dave: but we're taught to just call it wrong dancing.
Dave: and I.
Jeff: Listen to an interesting podcast this week, plain English by Derek Thompson. And it was talking about how
Jeff: the the fake facts, the shocking information.
Jeff: We're predisposed to be interested in that, and the media amplifies it and social. All the algorithms amplify it. But then we don't get the follow up or the nuance they were giving, the example of infant mortality increasing, which is sort of a fact that most of us have. Oh, yeah, infant mortality is actually increasing in America. And everything
Jeff: turns out it's actually a factor of how it's being measured.
Jeff: But I had not heard that until I heard this podcast
Jeff: and there's, you know, there's all the bad news, the the shipping clog, you know, the the
Jeff: supply system is is messed up. But you don't hear the oh, but now it's working fine.
Jen: I could hear.
Jeff: Hear the shocking bad news, the the trauma, the whatever. But you don't hear the rest of the story.
John: My favorite example of that is, during World War one
John: the UK.
John: Army switched from leather helmets
John: to steel helmets.
John: and their casualty rates went up.
John: and the reason that their casualty rates went up is because their mortality rates went down so they had more people.
Dave: Oh!
John: Wounded who were living, and therefore were casualties
John: and fewer people just dying on the battlefield. But unless you're right, unless you actually looked at the nuance there you would conclude that
John: switching to steel helmets was a bad idea.
Dave: And and the flip side of this is also just as dangerous. Right? So then you get to the point where everything you hear you're like Whoa. I want to see the research on.
Dave: And that's also problematic.
Jeff: Trusted sources. What's 1 of your 3 pillars.
Dave: That's trusted sources. Yeah, that's number 2. Yeah. You gotta be able to
Dave: to broaden that out to a community. Which is why I need somebody who knows more about
Dave: solar panels. I found one. By the way, I found somebody.
Dave: He's an electrician who actually has solar panels.
Dave: So I finally found somebody with the expertise to answer my questions.
Jeff: Ole.
Jeff: yeah, but that's required.
Dave: Who actually has enough
Dave: of the pieces to be able to sift through all the business
Dave: right.
Jeff: Yay, human intelligence.
John: And you tried to contact him. But his Internet's out, cause he doesn't have power.
Dave: No, he was at. He was in my backyard drinking beer.
John: Okay.
Dave: There!
Jen: But what are his motives? Is he trying to sell you solar panels? Dave.
Dave: I think he might partially be trying to get.
Jen: Oh, no! No! No! No! No! No!
John: He's trying to get beer out of Dave.
Dave: That's always a struggle.
John: Yeah.
Jen: Well, we had a big this was a big ask tonight. 2 chapters in in 1 h. I'm I'm knowing this things. Is there anything, Dave, that you wanted to make sure we
Jen: pay attention to as we're reading through these these 2 chapters?
Jen: We we do.
Dave: I mean, I just I really, it's it's a real pleasure pleasure, real privilege to have this conversation this way.
Dave: So I just wanna, I wanna thank you guys.
Dave: But it is. It is real great. When I wrote
Dave: this book I was hoping that it would spur
Dave: like, you know what John was talking about earlier. There's something about
Dave: the focus in the long form that allows you to have other conversations you might have not have had otherwise. This is exactly the kind of conversation I was hoping I get to have.
Jeff: And now that we're almost at the end of the book, I'd like to start a new section of our show called Favorite lines.
Jeff: I have 2 favorite lines, one from each chapter, and in both cases from the last paragraph, your last. You have a fine last paragraph game, Dave. You know you give us all sorts of blah blah blah! And then this last paragraph is always kind of oh, from pro chapter 5.
Jeff: I've done too many project, man, or I've done too much project management to believe in conspiracies
Jeff: totally get that.
Dave: Yeah.
Dave: yeah, I've
Dave: I just every time people talk about, I'm like, who do you think is organizing this like.
Jeff: So they they faked going to the moon, and they had all these people involved, and nobody's
John: Nobody's that organized. No.
Jeff: And from Chapter 6,
Jeff: and this hopefully leads us into answers. Next week. Next week we get answers
Jeff: to all these problems. If you've been getting stressed and concerned like me
Jeff: got to tune in next week.
Jeff: We need to be the best curriculum we can be.
Dave: Yeah. Jonathan.
John: Community is the curriculum.
Jen: There's been.
John: Saying that.
Jen: That's the correct.
John: 20 years.
John: Oh, yeah, it's right on the covered book. Forgot about that.
Dave: Well, thanks, guys.
John: He could have put that the community is the curriculum, and then he wouldn't have to put Dave Cormier at the bottom, because everybody would know. Oh, that's Dave's work.
Jeff: Alright! So next week the Grand Finale, chapter 7.
John: The conclusion.
Jeff: What is the title of chapter 7.
John: Now? What
John: so what.
Jen: Big physically, is your book. I'm reading a kindle, and I'll I never get like the conception of like.
Dave: Practices for an abundant world.
Jeff: Practical. Okay?
Jen: Practice. It's practices, that's what I.
John: Practices.
Jen: Very surprised that there was a chapter on.
John: Jen is from.
Jeff: But there is.
John: Small.
Jen: Yeah, and hold it up once. Can you hold it up, Dave? You got it.
John: Can you? Can you show her the spine?
Jen: The hard copy.
John: She can see how thick it is.
Jen: Oh, that's pretty thick.
Jen: It's hard to tell on a kindle for.
Jeff: And that's a hardback or a soft back.
Jen: Oh, sorry!
Jeff: Okay.
Jen: So that is hard. Oh, yeah.
Dave: It's thorough hardcover.
Jen: Oh, are they?
Jeff: There there is hope for humanity. This is Finals Week, and my students have been answering all sorts of questions, and one of their opinion essay topics was, do you? Ebooks are better than hard copies or hard copies are better than ebooks, and several of them went with hard copies.
Jeff: and they also had the option of creating a business proposal to the they are writing a grant for to the Lebo Foundation, and one of them wrote for an unplugged cafe. When they went in they had to leave all their devices.
John: License.
Jen: Outside.
Jeff: So.
Dave: Made entirely out of tin.
Jeff: So Tuesday next week for answers.
John: Of a head.
Jeff: When we will conclude our discussion of learning in a time of abundance.
Jeff: See you there.
Jen: Tada.
Jeff: Okay.
Jen: You know we never got to your thing, Dave, about. Your thing you you did today. Your talk you did today.
Dave: Oh, yeah.
Jen: But no, yeah. I was curious how their perception is from a business community. Versus educators would say.
Dave: I don't know yet.
Jen: Oh, I thought you were.
Dave: Doing a pre meeting.
Jen: 3.
Dave: Run the thing cause they wanted to see my slides before I presented. I was like.
John: Ha! Ha!
Dave: Okay.
John: I'm not gonna know which slides I'm gonna use until I'm actually.
Dave: Well, I did mention that they may change a little bit before Thursday. A lot.
Dave: But frankly, I'm anytime anybody wants to go through that. So I'm more than happy to take feedback like, and they were really good about it. And it was a good conversation.
Dave: But I mean trying to figure out how to explain this to somebody right now, in a way that.