Jeff: Alright. We are streaming, we have tweeted. We are recording
Jeff: anything anybody want to say before
Jeff: we begin our last lap around this
Jeff: track.
Jennifer: Now.
Dave: I've really enjoyed the slap around the track. Thank you very much for joining.
Jen: It's been very fun. Thank you for writing the book for.
John: Yeah.
Jeff: Hello! And welcome to
Jeff: the long anticipated, slightly delayed grand finale of our discussion of Dave's learning in a time of abundance.
Jeff: 215 questions. Later. Tonight we get answers this is Jeff Lebo in pusan Korea.
Jen: My name is Jennifer Migel, in Chicago, Illinois.
John: Hi! This is John Shinker in Stow, Ohio.
Dave: And Dave in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.
Jeff: Alright. Been a little while any updates from life before we jump into the final chapter.
Dave: My garden's doing great.
Jen: That's really good. Great.
Jeff: I got Covid.
Dave: You've got cut. What.
Jen: You did that? Yeah.
Jeff: 1st time.
John: Boy!
Jen: Emily.
Jeff: Am.
Jen: How? How'd you get get through it? Okay.
Jeff: Yeah, couple of days of like, you know, been really coldy. And then so far
Jeff: back up to 100% hiking and exercising ability. And no lingering symptoms.
Jen: Good to hear
Jen: great.
Jeff: And I finished my roofing now. So it's been a great thing.
Jen: Do you finish serious?
Jen: It's kind of been a rough couple of weeks or so
Jen: since we last were together few weeks.
Jeff: All right. Let us get into it.
Jeff: Jen, with her. Yeah.
Jen: Hey? With my AI, as we'll see in our list of practices like transparency is a big thing, apparently.
Jen: paraphrasing. But so to me this last chapter. I think you're pulling together all the threads from the book and reading them into a nice little chapter of practices, and so I do have to. I did kind of make
Jen: fun of you earlier in our conversations about having practices, cause I it's always kind of hard to PIN you down
Jen: generalities of things, we should all consider doing so. That kind of cracked me up. But really, like, I said, I really do view this as kind of weaving together themes as much as anything. So there's 7 practices. That's correct, right? It's been a while since I've gone through this and so let's just kind of take them one at a time, unless someone else has a different idea of how you wanna approach it, or Dave, did you? Wanna? Why don't you
Jen: respond to my thought?
Jen: How how did you come about.
Dave: One. That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me, and I appreciate you.
Jen: That's that's it.
Dave: Ye. Yeah, I mean, I took. And we talked a little bit about this previously, but I took like 4 different tries to try and figure out what a last chapter could look like.
Dave: I am. Not a huge
Dave: lover of definitive statements. So I try to
Dave: tell the story and allow the reader to come to the conclusions that matter for them. But at some point you've got to sort of
Dave: give some kind of maybe additional story, which is what I went for, of how these things could come together in different kinds of circumstances. So the list is not meant to be
Dave: oof
Dave: entire list of anything, but rather 7 things that seemed like reasonable pieces of advice that would again.
Dave: like the rest of the book, is not really about what you would specifically teach.
Dave: but like how you approach this in the world, though I've advised people to teach it, anyway, because I think there's probably a lot of stuff in there that'd be reasonable to do
Dave: so. Thank you, because that's what I'd hoped it would do.
Dave: and it
Dave: warms the cockles of my heart to hear that it's actually done that for at least one person.
Jeff: Not a huge lover of definitive statements. I feel like that could be your Bio Tagline.
Dave: I'm literally running a conference on uncertainty next week.
Jen: So a lot of these questions and discussion points again, are going to be somewhat repetitive. Because we've talked about them before. But let's just kind of take them in order. Maybe practice number one. Build new fact habits. And so my takeaway on. This is, you know this idea of like, how do we fact check in a digital age and some of the techniques for verifying information and potentially tools and resources?
Jen: So anything you wanna add to like kind of
Jen: the theme of fact checking before we kind of delve into some of the questions I had.
Dave: Sure I mean, I mentioned my Caulfield work here in his new book with was Forget the guy's name, him and another person just released a book called Verified, which I advise everybody to read.
Dave: My favorite piece from his work, and my favorite thing about facts.
Dave: particularly those that are not clearly defined. Facts like that's the capital of New Zealand.
Dave: Is. Once you get excited about something that's when you need to worry.
Dave: And I love that sort of thing that he says that if if you hear something that sounds fact like if it supports your existing position, if it pushes you forward. If it's 1 of those things you're like, yeah, that's what I thought. That's when you get suspicious. That's when you need to do the fact checking. That's when you need to find out what's going on.
Dave: you're likely to go ahead and do it anyway, for the ones you don't like.
Dave: right. So you're if if something says something that contradicts your belief. So if I read something that says coffee is bad for me, I'm going to be like. No, it isn't. I bet you I find something else that doesn't support that, whereas everything that says coffee is good for me, I'm like correct.
Dave: and I just move on with my life right? And it's that kind of thing where?
Dave: Because this stuff comes at us so quickly, because we have all these sort of things that that all these kinds of facts that we engage with
Dave: and you guys are entering into a cycle right now, that's going to be quite terrifying for you and the rest of the world. In terms of that
Dave: we're on a daily basis. We have things come out, and you're like that can't be true.
Dave: And then you read about and you're like, Oh, indeed, it seems that it is
Dave: or wow! That's probably true, and it's certainly when it comes to the political figures that I don't like.
Dave: I'm more likely to believe the things that come out. But
Dave: That paint them in a bad light. And it's that sort of feeling, I think, particularly now. It's so important that we change the idea that
Dave: of how we receive those facts. And we're sensitive to how we emotionally respond to them
Dave: and how that impacts the way that we make
Dave: decisions about them.
Jen: Yeah, you use my example. That I was gonna here we are, smack in the middle of our election season here, and we're trying to determine. Today, for example, will be dated when the others hear it. Maybe tomorrow will have new facts. But does Biden have Parkinson's? Or was he just bringing people to the White House because he just signed the law on Parkinson's?
Jen: And so, as you go to your typical fact, finding places, there's a lot of opinion out there even like that. We're getting a big blending of like. For example, New York Times. It's kinda hard to tell an article from the opinion pages of the New York Times, for example.
Jen: So that was my 1st question is like, I'm living it right now. So I am asking the question to the group for realsies. How do we evaluate reliable sources and fact checking information? So what are you folks doing in this age of uncertainty.
Jen: who are experts and who's telling us factual information versus those that have an agenda, those types of things.
John: So if we go back to my high school
John: experience with us, which
John: I had a an American history teacher who only taught from primary sources, and his whole
John: theme for the semester was about frames of reference, and taught us
John: to look at every account through the eyes of the person creating that account. And so what were their motivations for
John: creating this artifact? What were their reasons for creating it? What did they get out of it? What did they risk by doing it? And by looking through that lens
John: you can see where their biases are, and and not necessarily
John: discount what they're saying. But but take that
John: in its own context. And so.
John: you know, historically, we'd look at the battle of Lexington and the the bunch of accounts that exist based on
John: or from that event, and some of those were written right after the event, and some of them were written weeks later, and some of them were written years later, and and some of them were to justify military action or to justify. You know what people did
John: in the current context.
John: If you're looking at news sources. Why is why is the news source, or why is this resource
John: framing this story this way and and unfortunately that, often comes down to eyeballs and clicks and viewers and and advertising revenue.
John: Cause. That's where the money is, as Dave is pointing out.
John: I don't know that that solves anything. But knowing
John: that you're not getting an accurate picture from this source. If they're mainly interested in getting people to click on headlines or to to read the you know the big text at the beginning of the article, and not the little text that that actually goes into depth on what's going on.
John: It changes! How
John: how stories are framed.
Jen: Yes, Tyson to me for me, anyway, conversations we've had on persistence because it just makes you take that extra step to. As you said John. I like the word you said was motivations of those that are providing this information, and so trying to
Jen: ascertain that can be hard, and you have to cross reference it with other sources and see if other people that you typically rely on are taking that same position. And so it really does put a lot of burden on the person trying to absorb the information.
John: So it's exhausting right to to try to come to some understanding. And
John: I I think we also have that responsibility to do that for things that we're sharing. Remember that
John: when you're sharing things with other people, you're attaching your credibility to that information because people will say I heard from Jennifer Madre, that or Jeff Lebo posted on his blog, that you know this this thing is true. So
John: yeah, yeah.
John: so.
Jeff: I, yeah, I post these.
John: You.
Jeff: Another thought that occurs is.
Jeff: I have a growing appreciation for sources that are not directly involved. So if we're talking about us, politics non us sources. Now, those are going to vary differently whether I'm getting it from Dw. Or Rt. Or Al Jazeera. But still there's sort of an outside perspective, where you feel like the parties are not
Jeff: directly involved in
Jeff: the bias isn't quite as
Jeff: firsthand.
John: There's there's no horse on the race.
Jeff: Right.
Jeff: I know, Dave. What's the answer?
Dave: I think that works. I think, that works for us.
Jeff: David. Well.
Dave: I think one of the things that I try to keep doing is going. Do I need to know this?
Dave: And do I need to be able to get the answer to this question. There's 2 reasons for that one. Once you go to, you can lose half your life trying to find the answer to one question.
Dave: As you go down the rabbit hole and start cross, referencing all the rest of that stuff.
Dave: So I think that's part of what I will look at something and go and I mean
Dave: Biden's. Parkins is a good example.
Dave: It's 4 months for the election.
Dave: It doesn't matter right now to me.
Dave: It's not gonna affect well, I mean, I'm not American, anyway. But if it was in my country and the situation was the same. It's not gonna affect how I'm gonna vote. In 4 months
Dave: I might find out in 4 months, but it doesn't matter to me and sort of trading on
Dave: the rumors and the rest of it, and that all it does is amplifies
Dave: the noise right, and it takes away from for me the things that I could be working on that probably should be
Dave: right. And I think there's a piece there, too. And the second part. Now wait, wait for guys. Watch, watch this.
Dave: It goes into the second one.
Jen: It does.
Dave: Which is about
Dave: leaving the breadcrumbs, but.
Jen: And John had a John just put that out there for us.
Dave: Pick it up and.
Jen: Yeah. Grab it, master.
Dave: And instead of saying, I know X is true. It's
Dave: so, and so, says X is true.
Dave: And that way you're leaving the trail behind you for somebody to find out where you got it from, rather than just presenting that information. Strabane, I mean, I have one. I have one friend from childhood.
Dave: who is
Dave: a fierce
Dave: Debater and sort of
Dave: against people who doubt climate change.
Dave: But a good 3rd of what he posts
Dave: is actually not true.
Dave: and I understand it supports this position, but it for me, at least
Dave: in the, in the broader conversation it makes this position worse.
Dave: So if anybody finds. One thing he posted isn't true.
Dave: It sort of wrecks.
John: Destroys his credibility. Yeah.
Dave: Destroys his credibility, and and he posts a lot of
Dave: like picture snippets
Dave: without the link where it comes from. So like you can do.
Jen: Like a room.
Dave: 1st image search and maybe find it. But I'm guessing that I'm the only person doing that.
Dave: It's possible, and you can do it. But it's, I think.
Dave: in that sort of way in which we need to be respectful to the way that other people think. And the way we're trying to to learn what's going on in the world.
Dave: We need to shy away from those things as much as possible.
Dave: Put the if you're gonna put the text in, put the source in, if you're gonna say a thing is true.
Dave: either explain why, you know it's true.
Dave: So I can tell you that some yellow beans do indeed actually climb up ropes, cause I've watched it happen.
Dave: But
Dave: you know, I don't know why my cucumbers are starting to not grow. I have guesses, but I don't have facts about the situation, whereas I can clearly identify that yellow beans are my control
Dave: and entertainingly so like even now I'm into. I think it's
Dave: it's almost easier to understand in the in the more contentious situations. But I've started trying to learn how to compost in my backyard. Compost. Reddit, super intense. It turns out surprisingly
Dave: and
Dave: And you can tell a real difference from you people who are telling you what to do, because it's true.
Dave: And then people whose tone is more like, look, this is what I've done. This is what's happened. This is what I've seen happen. This is what so and so says. This is where I learned it from.
Dave: That second version is way more prosocial
Dave: and just. It's way easier for me to engage with that person's approach. And
Dave: I have started trying to blog differently.
Dave: I've started trying to. Even when I'm posting anything relevant. I always try to pull a link in. I'll
Dave: into contentious situations. I'll try to find the source material and post it and ask people if that's what they're talking about.
Dave: I just think it makes it
Dave: a more inclusive conversation.
Dave: And hopefully
Dave: reduces the noise just a little bit.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: And just to clarify what Dave was saying, the point number 2 is to leave breadcrumbs. Right? Is that what you meant, Dave? John served that one up for us. And so again, just to summarize that it's the idea of having transport transparency and sharing your information where you're getting your sources?
Jen: And so the question, then, oh, go ahead. Sorry.
Jeff: A related lack of transparency can be AI and lack of trust, and prepared for this. I wanted just a nice little list of these 7 practices from Dave's learning in a time of abundance. So I went to Chat Gpt. And I said, What are the 7 practices Dave suggests in Chapter 7 of learning in a time of abundance, and it gave me a lovely 7 that were totally inaccurate.
Jeff: And I said, That's not correct.
John: In the middle of chapter 2.
Jen: I see.
Jeff: I said, Why, why are you making stuff up? Why don't you just say I don't know. And he said, here are set. Here are the 7 1. They just gave me 7 different ones.
John: Oh, you are correct. I'm just making things up. Let me try to do better.
Jen: Here's your.
John: Like things up that
John: you won't to.
Jeff: What's credit and Gemini's credit, they said, oh, I don't have enough information to answer that.
John: Right.
John: Did any of them say? Dave won't let us read his book.
Jeff: They did not. They just pretended to have read it like us all.
Jen: And well, what do you think now about I still use Google search. I don't know what other folks use, and I cannot stand that the 1st thing I get is the AI synthesis across various sources. And then when I go to the source of like, that's not what it says, like there'll be some like pretty important thing that is missing from their synthesis. That then. But then that's very scary to me that people are gonna be going. It's at the top.
Jen: It looks very authoritative. It looks like Google said it. So it's gotta be right. And that scares the Jesus out of me.
Dave: Queen.
Dave: So much of it has to do with the fact that
Dave: we don't talk a lot about
Dave: what it means to actually learn something
Dave: from my perspective. At least this I mean, that's kind of the whole point of look.
Dave: So there's a really fascinating Gen. AI tool out there right now whose name escapes me, that translates books in the plain language.
Dave: So you get a sentence, and the one that I saw the picture of is from great Gatsby, and it's like I was standing on the corner and thinking deeply about something, and the father and something and something.
Dave: and it translates it to my father said something really important once.
Dave: and so.
Dave: yes.
Dave: that's what's there.
Dave: But that's the point of it. That's like the content. But the point wasn't that. The point was about the feeling of the context.
Dave: which wasn't translated because it's not important.
Dave: And when it comes to these things, I think, or the thing with Gen. AI. Is that?
Dave: Is it? Explaining things to people, I guess, is like, was I telling you about the kid whose presentation I saw, where he was applying for the Arts scholarship.
Dave: so whole presentation on a kid who who set up an application for an arts, grant.
Dave: and then put all of his application into Gen. AI. Line by line, and see what it would do.
Dave: And he was really happy with the outcome. But what it did was switched all of his passion into really boring language
Dave: that sounded really professional.
Dave: and for him he looked at his like. It sounds so much more professional. I'm like.
Dave: I'm totally giving the money to the other guy.
Dave: Your boring professional guy doesn't sound like an artist to me.
John: Piece of art, and made science out of it.
Dave: Or business out of it.
John: Yeah, right.
Dave: And and it's
Dave: it's about
Dave: what we value
Dave: in the responses. We get
Dave: right it. The the thing about Gen. AI is it rips the texture out of it.
Dave: and it just gives you the whatever, sometimes the wrong whatever. But even when it gets it right.
Dave: it you lose all the context like, it's the context stripper.
Dave: Right? So it's exactly which I was saying, like, you don't get the
Dave: you don't get the rest of it. You just get, even if it's even if it's right, you still don't get the context, and you don't get the person.
Jeff: Feel fortunate to be here getting context 1st hand all the passion, all the flavour.
John: I can.
Dave: Can't even be nice to him just looking at me.
Jeff: I'm genuine.
Dave: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: That was a thing. Where is that? And we also work. We're covering a lot of you, said pro-social a moment ago. We're skipping all over the place. Imagine that. And this is chapter that summarizes the book. All right, all right. Are we good with that? Are we good with the breadcrumbs before we move on to the next one.
Dave: It's so weird, cause I always hated citation.
Dave: and now I'm pitching it all the time.
Jen: Just think about like the golden age of blogging, I mean, that was so exciting to me was like seeing the hyperlink, and oh.
John: Myself struggling with. How do I know that? I know?
John: You know Dave and I could talk about composting and beans and cucumbers, and whatever cause I've been doing that my whole life. But I don't have a source for how to do composting. I can just tell them what I did, or what I do.
John: and he can do that or not do it, but
John: like coming up with
John: the ability to back that up. Besides saying, This is what my dad said to do.
John: that's that's gonna be hard, you know. If if I have to justify everything by citing
John: some other source that.
Dave: But you don't. As long as you say this is what I do. You're telling a story.
Dave: If you're saying this is true.
Dave: that's a different thing, entirely
Dave: right. And that's where like, that's the value of story. That's the beauty of it. I can talk about my personal experiences. You can understand them as a personal experience. I can take what I want from it.
Dave: but it doesn't mean that you're making a truth claim
John: Well, but I could say, if you walk on your cucumbers, if you step on the plants they'll die.
John: which is
John: true.
John: but not.
John: you know.
John: I I guess I could look that up somewhere. You could Google it. But I could tell you from experience that you know.
Dave: Stop stepping on your cucumbers, John.
Jen: Yeah. Well.
John: Mine are on a nice little trellis, but yours are dying. I hear.
Dave: Yeah.
Dave: Too. Crowded.
Jeff: Since this is the conclusion
Jeff: of this series, any solar panel wrap up?
Jeff: Have you made any decisions.
Jen: Solar panels! I I do want to know what's happening.
Dave: No, no decisions as of yet.
Jeff: Season, 2.
Dave: Yeah, that's right.
Jen: You're gonna have a blog post with breadcrumbs that we can follow your.
John: Going to be updates on solar panels, updates on the soccer career.
John: All of the stuff. It's all coming back.
Dave: Mr. Fraser.
Jen: Alright. So practice number 3, I think we covered this
Jen: pretty well. This is a learn to cheat honestly, and I I put in my notes here Jeff had a lot of good examples of how, for example, he used AI in his classroom, right? Jeff.
Jen: And so yeah, you know what I'm gonna pivot and ask Jeff
Jen: how another your kit classes can concluded, and you used a lot of AI with it.
Jen: What is your? Where's your barometer of cheating and not cheating, using a.
Jeff: You know.
Jeff: hey? It's a fine line between cheating and collaborating.
Jeff: Whether it's with a human or a
Jeff: tool I'm I'm more on board with AI than ever. And I'm teaching writing again next semester. And I feel like actually a big part of what I you know, they still need to as non-native English speakers. They still need to focus on mechanics so they can do well on the toe. Exam.
Jeff: I feel like addressing
Jeff: the lack of passion. And AI writing is the other component.
Jeff: like they're going to be using AI. How do you make it better?
Jeff: How do you use it in your writing to produce what you how to help you and not hurt you.
Jeff: to produce
Jeff: better, more substantive, flavorful.
Dave: And it's that last piece that matters right. It's the what is it you're trying to do?
Dave: Not just write the thing because I asked you to.
Dave: But what's it for?
Dave: And that's the piece I think we've got an opportunity right now to dig into with people.
Jeff: And when is it appropriate to care about that? And when? Is it not? Sometimes
Jeff: a business letter just needs to be? This is this is arriving on this ship. And here's the information you need, and it doesn't need to be flavorful and passionate. But
Jeff: you know, sometimes we want to express our ideas and our feelings, and it does.
John: A couple of questions. I I was recently in London, on a vacation which we talked about beforehand.
Jen: Aa.
John: And I shared some pictures with y'all.
John: Almost all of those pictures I made adjustments to. After I took them I I went into photo editing and changed the brightness or contrast, or exposure, or crop them, or, you know, increased the saturation, or whatever do I need to disclose that
John: when I share those pictures.
Jen: After Kate meddled.
John: Because I use technology to make them better than they otherwise would have been. Or do I need to?
John: You know, if I use grammarly to help me.
John: You know, write an email, or or I click on the little squiggles under the words and find out that they're spelled
John: abhorrently and and click on it, and it fixes them. Do I need to tell people that I'm doing that?
John: Or is it.
Jeff: And to come.
John: Takes a ton of words and.
Jeff: And published on.
John: Being.
Jeff: Indicated with.
John: Well, you know, it's an email, or it's a their photos. I'm sharing with friends.
John: If I used AI to do those things, would I should I be disclosing that I'm using AI for them?
Jeff: If you're sharing publishing in Time magazine, if that still exists. Yes.
John: So Time magazine discloses when photos are edited.
Jeff: I think it's appropriate. To do so
Jeff: would be my or.
John: Or is it the expectation that all of them are.
Jeff: I think at some point in that magazine they should say, you know, photos have been, is it? If it changes the and I guess this is a blurry line. If it changes the
Jeff: if it's just changing the lighting. Is that a big deal? But if it substitutes someone's face, yes, it is.
Dave: Yeah. And I mean, I'm happy with the nuance there, like if it's all it do, all the the machine is doing is correcting my grammar and my spelling, and it's not changing the tone or the tense or the meaning of what I'm doing, then I don't think I need to declare it
Dave: if it's
Dave: building ideas that aren't mine.
John: Hmm.
Dave: And I'm representing them as mine. So if you're adding Kate Middleton to your photo, and you're saying that you met her.
Dave: then you should probably include the fact that you faked the photo.
Dave: I don't know what
Dave: you could possibly do to make a photo of yourself any better than it already is. But whatever that is.
John: Ha!
Dave: Sure, it couldn't be that much.
Jen: Yeah, I think that is a good. And I I tried to do that again. This is also new. But with my students this year, I think I started out our conversation, saying, I tried to get this idea across. That at least my perception was with the AI was like a learning, Buddy. But if it's something you're turning to me into me as your work, and it's your original work. Then I'm there is an assumption there that it's
Jen: original. It means it's it's coming from you. So there is that like you just said Jeff. There's a lot of blur, you know, with it how much learning, you know. What point does it cross over from being the learning Buddy to like? Oh, no, that's my own idea, you know.
Jen: But I think.
John: Maybe a reflection of where we are in time. That 20 years from now, when we're all meeting to talk about Dave's second book
John: that will be laughing at. Oh, we used to disclose when we're using it, you know. Just became part of
John: what we were doing all the time. And so.
John: yeah, we would be surprised if someone weren't using AI to write things or
John: to fix
John: our grammar mistakes, or whatever.
Jen: I used to make a distinction.
John: Sound.
Jen: Way back in the day, like not 5 years ago, the difference between like connecting with a peer student like versus collaborating with. And you know, maybe there, there's something to tease out there as well, cause I really really strongly encourage students to swap papers
Jen: before they turn them in. And you know, share and compare ideas.
Jen: But I wouldn't expect them to take someone else's paragraph and turn it in as their own paragraph. You know there may be some insights they gain from it. So I think those are the types of things will be kind of interesting to see.
Jen: I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.
Jeff: By the way, 796 photos from John's trip. 3 of him.
John: Well, those those are not my wife's photos. She has her own set.
John: and you're awesome.
Dave: They do so much editing.
Dave: Yeah.
Jen: Alright. I think I set myself up for practice. 4. Then so be gentle with yourself and your beliefs.
Jen: Cause I I and I think we all are, have said many times where this is all very new to all of us is that kind of your point. Here, Dave is.
Jen: take. Take a breather when it starts getting a little overwhelming that we're we're trying to
Jen: do our best to figure this out.
Jeff: Gen. Z. Of you.
Dave: I think
Dave: I was
Dave: I still remember the 1st sort of year I spent at South Korea when I realized that
Dave: the worldview that I was born with was not everyone's worldview.
Dave: and I don't mean in a dramatic sense, but I mean in an everyday sense.
Dave: that you get sort of confront when it's such a different culture, and I don't know if it's still the same way. But when I got there in the late 90 S. It was still pretty
Dave: like booty hung, it was. Still.
Dave: it still had that strong kind of feel to it.
Dave: Like, 97% of the population was Korean like it was a real, strong.
Dave: cultural sort of reality, of good experience in that sense
Dave: different than walking into a country in Europe where there's lots of different people going around, whereas in Korea, like
Dave: the real
Dave: sense in a real kind of feel to it, and
Dave: that feeling of Oh, my God! My feelings are not universal, my views are not universal, my values are not universal. The way I was brought up wasn't universal
Dave: is something that the vast majority of the population has wasn't confronted with before
Dave: 1950, like or 1980 or 2 of how you look at it. But you just were not absorbed to as many cultures on a regular basis. Right? You had
Dave: your experience that was contained inside of your community, and maybe you move to the next community. Just look at the difference in accents like before radio and after
Dave: right where you have this sort of dulling of regionalism because people are passing around. You've got like more of a dominant culture that's coming over the top.
Dave: And I think for a lot of people, part of the challenge is coming across new things that confront them.
Dave: It's some of the confrontation is good, because some of my beliefs, certainly, and certain like, are outdated and male, dominant or white, dominant, or about where I was brought up, or whatever it happens to be.
Dave: And I think
Dave: that feeling of I've done it wrong. Is that what you're saying
Dave: is different than okay. I can see what you're saying. I'm gonna let myself grow through this process. I'm gonna be easy. But I'm gonna take my time. I'm gonna figure it out.
Dave: not blame myself or blame you.
Dave: but allow that sort of
Dave: experience to happen. And in some cases the the outcome is.
Dave: I can see where you come from.
Dave: Jeff, with your crazy views on Jen AI. And I can see where I come from. We don't have to agree entirely. But I respect your opinion, and that's fine. And that's about
Dave: that's 1 way and then the other sense. We're actually changing what your beliefs are, and certainly like
Dave: for me, learning how to confront my gender performance was certainly been that kind of growth in the last 10 or 15 years where I'm like.
Dave: I do do that, don't I? It is kind of obnoxious. I can't believe it.
Dave: And sort of trying to get better at it, and recognizing that best may not ever get there.
Dave: but not to get too hard on yourself on it, because I think that's where the growth stops. And I think we're confronted with so many more of those things. Now, it's part of the abundance experience. I think.
Jeff: Can you extend this practice to teachers being gentle with students?
Jeff: 5.
Dave: Friggin. Hope so. I wish I'd put that in the book.
Dave: yeah, I
Dave: I don't think that
Dave: the teaching profession has ever been chronically nice to students.
Dave: I think that the idea of threatening students
Dave: with their parents, or with grades or with sticks, or whatever we've done at different kinds of situations. It's always been kind of
Dave: problematic.
Dave: And it's actually the thing that I that people find the most confronting in the in the sessions that I do
Dave: is when I talk about power and how you've lost it.
Dave: With an AI like you, you've lost a certain amount of power to control your students. And like, I'm not trying to control my students. I'm like
Dave: Bailey.
Dave: let's walk through that, shall we?
Dave: And the choice to decide to care more about the students who care and focus on them, and like have care or kindness as your default space
Dave: rather than rigor
Dave: to me is the is the core shift.
Dave: So if if you have a default value, so as you're sorting your values.
Dave: if your top value is rigor.
Dave: I think it's going to be really hard to be kind to the students in your classroom. If your top value is care, it doesn't mean that rigor doesn't exist.
Dave: But if your top value is care.
Dave: I think it changes the landscape of how we look at education. And to me that's the shift.
Dave: I think there's.
Jeff: The attitude component. There's also the structural component.
Dave: Yeah, for sure.
Dave: Talk more about that, Jeff.
Jeff: That was just my headline.
Jeff: Deeper thinking.
John: Speaking in little pieces, so he can cut them out later and post them.
Jeff: Yeah, cause.
John: And whole thing of.
Jen: Big tag.
John: Uses is a tiktok, though.
Jeff: I feel like I've become a much
Jeff: kinder, gentler
Jeff: educator. As I have seen struggles my students are going through and realizing. Oh, you're late. It's because you were working all night. And you know, you know, you, you learn the story behind this student and structurally
Jeff: trying to build in
Jeff: motivation for those who are aiming high.
Jeff: But like, I just want to pass
Jeff: like I try to. You know, here's what you need to do.
Jeff: A little bit of flexibility, a little bit of customization possible.
Jeff: structurally, but still grappling with that.
Jen: Hmm! Oh, that's what you meant by structurally.
Jen: like we had certain.
Jeff: Nature of the assignment.
Jen: Standards. You need to pass the class and like, okay.
John: Hmm.
Jen: Oh!
Dave: I mean Jeff's in one of those situations. I'm guessing still where he can do whatever the hell he wants in his class. There's no standards walking around behind him. Going, Jeff, you need to accomplish these things like I. Probably no one's looked at Jeff's class in 20 years.
Dave: So he's got some privilege there in terms of being able to just kinda go. I'm gonna be super nice. I mean, it's great.
Jeff: But.
Dave: Like when I talk to the engineering professors like that. Someday I still got to get this out the door
Dave: right. And there's gonna be
Dave: an audit of the program, and if I don't have certain things in place, then we're gonna lose our accreditation.
Jeff: We get audited. They just want to see exam papers.
Jeff: That's my biggest challenge, like, oh, I better go find some of my digital stuff to print out.
John: You get AI to generate those.
Jeff: We haven't been audited in a few years. Stay tuned.
Jen: So I think
Jen: the addendum to the book could be
Jen: practice number 4, be check, because there's a lot of different ways you could take. Be gentle with yourself and your beliefs with yourself as well as your with your students like.
Dave: You have a different take on it.
Jen: No? Well, I mean, I kind of went a little bit. Well.
Jen: okay. I see, General, with yourself in terms of like the belief side of it definitely like you work, you know, just this idea, even yourself. And then also helping other student, your students as they encounter new things.
Jen: not to just go in immediately with their own perceptions and potentially biases or whatever, and like, just to appreciate that there are other perspectives. I think that's always been, I think, a big part of teaching right. But I'm I was also saying in terms of being gentle with myself. This is a huge time of uncertainty
Jen: for teachers as well as students. And I think our gut reaction is to ban things. For example, like, you know, it's a lip. I think we just need to sometimes take a little breath like what's
Jen: and to kind of tie into what, Jeff, what you were saying. If we let a few slide that didn't meet standards. Is that going to be the end of the world? Probably not. Do we need to be hard on the students and hard on ourselves at every corner, at every turn. Those types of things, I think, are going to be challenging for us for a while
Jen: more so than in prior years.
Jen: and again tying back to this whole idea of
Jen: academic integrity. And what does AI mean? Those types of things? It's really easy to run to a place of safety by banning things and
Jen: saying it's automatically bad. That's kind of my.
Jeff: Like could be a segue.
Jen: Okay, do it, Jeff. Take it. Take us there.
Jeff: Well practice. Number 5. Learn to see who is left behind.
Dave: Hmm.
Dave: Yeah.
Jen: Sorry. That sounds rough.
Dave: Dirty one!
Dave: My 1st encounter with it was with digital 1st stuff at the government and Pei.
Dave: There's a bunch of very well meaning people who are trying to develop practices that we're going to get people services quicker
Dave: and understand why they're doing it. I mean, it's cheaper. But also the people who are there. We're not talking about it being cheaper. They may have gotten approved that way, but the people in the room were not about that
Dave: but what they didn't see was how many people
Dave: needed
Dave: a person
Dave: to be able to
Dave: understand what was available to them. Right, for instance. So when you're looking at a health service, for instance.
Dave: it's 1 thing to be able to go online and find a health service. If you know the name of it.
Dave: and you know it exists.
Dave: and then track it down and then get it. If you've got all those things that have set up, and you've got all your accounts set up. Wow! Are you getting that thing faster?
Dave: But
Dave: there's no counter. There's no place to go to. There's no
Dave: or when you go to a counter, the person who's there is the counterperson for government
Dave: right or for a whole swath of governments. They don't have any details.
Dave: They only have what they often do is stand in front of the computer with you.
Dave: Which, if you're already intimidated by that process, it's not gonna make you feel better.
Dave: And so
Dave: it's easy to look at those government services from the perspective of the vast majority of us and say, wow! This is so so much improved.
Dave: But the thing about those digital things is it hides and hives off the people who
Dave: aren't getting those services? You can't even see them right, because they're not present anymore, because there's nowhere for them to be
Dave: and it's that thing around this, all these abundance of connections and all the rest of the stuff that I think is
Dave: Those people far behind fall behind, quicker.
Dave: I think, now than they used to.
Jen: Yeah. And I think you know, kind of beyond access to resources. Or you know, whatever, I kind of going back to what I was saying several times, I guess, during our conversations this is idea. Persistence for us to survive to me a lot of it has to do with persistence. You got to dig for your sources. You've got to dig for motivations. You've got to dig for different perspectives.
Jen: It all takes time. It takes a lot of, you know, critical thinking skills, digital literacy skills. And so
Jen: I think that's also part of again, a lot of times when you think about digital inclusion or digital a lot of times you're talking about Internet access. And do you have a laptop? And you have, or using a smartphone, or whatever. But I think even the way we think about teaching and learning we come from a very.
Jen: We've all kind of follow, all of us, on this call kind of followed a similar path.
Jen: And
Jen: I think this conversation is very different if we look at different
Jen: entry points into society, and the way that we have time to do things, and the luxury of of being able to
Jen: take the time to do it.
John: Even just not going through, following the path right? Not
John: spending 20 years watching all this stuff develop and going through all of these steps to to better understand where we are now and how we got here. If you're just starting here.
John: it's it's a lot of catch up to figure out why things are the way they are and how to
John: how to interact and and function in that environment.
Jen: Any other thoughts, Jeff, you're.
Jeff: Well, I'm just thinking about the generational component like I, that's sort of a Gen. X. Or J. Boomer perspective of like, you know, needing to get caught up
Jeff: the the younger generations.
Jeff: They're fishing water. And they're we're asking about water
Jeff: right? Yeah.
Jeff: But still there's there's the digital divide, and there's there's, you know, there's the preference. Also, like I'm always struck by how many of my students aren't on social media and
Jeff: are technically
Jeff: I had twin sisters, and one was very tech and the other wasn't, and like one would always call the other boomer.
Jen: Are we good on that? With that 2 more to go? Oh, perfect good timing people. Okay, I I think you'll need to help us. Parse this one model your values to build pro a pro social web.
Jen: Is that what that says pro social web is that.
Jeff: Well, it's a typo.
Dave: That's what it says.
Jen: That better.
Dave: Not a typo.
Dave: not the typos that my child found.
Jen: Oh, I had a typo in my notes. Sorry in our go ahead. Yeah. Please explain.
Dave: So I I mean, it's it's what I was talking about earlier, right? It's about having understanding how your values situate themselves.
Dave: So
Dave: when we.
Dave: when you're
Dave: the things you're deciding about, take a long time to happen when there are things that involve in your community the sort of values sort themselves the reasons why people make the decisions that they make.
Dave: And now
Dave: because we have.
Dave: So let's say, you're having an argument with somebody on
Dave: Facebook. So you're over 40,
Dave: and you're debating the contents of the climate stuff.
Dave: The ways in which you choose to argue can be about winning the argument which is non-existent doesn't like help anybody anyway.
Dave: But if what you care about is, for instance, changing the other person's mind or being right, is a good example of 2 distinctions.
Dave: as I tell my kids calling somebody an asshole is rarely a good path to changing their mind.
Dave: And it's that sort of understanding why you're engaged in the process. And then it's when it comes to the example from the book
Dave: is
Dave: about
Dave: me trying to get my mind around figuring out how to deal with pronouns.
Dave: I have a terrible memory, I've been told at some point or other, every one of my which one of my kids friends are to be represented. In what way
Dave: I can barely remember my kids, names, let alone my kids, friends, names, let alone their pronouns?
Dave: But then the question becomes, am I? Is it more important for me to not be embarrassed? Or is it more important for me to respect that kid that comes in my door.
Dave: and it has to be the kid.
Dave: From my value standpoint it's easy to forget, cause I don't like being embarrassed about it. I don't like having to ask them over and over again.
Jeff: Pass out! Name tags when they come in.
Dave: Thought about it. I was gonna do it this year in my.
John: Tuesday. Them for everybody.
Dave: I've gone down that road.
Dave: But they can smell it, they can tell. I'm not paying attention like they know.
Jeff: Eventually we'll have wearable augmentation that you can.
Dave: No, I'm cheating for now.
Jeff: So pop! Up.
Dave: that's what I was gonna do this fall. Actually. So I I'm not teaching this fall now. But I was when I was going to be teaching is getting students to write
Dave: their preferred name
Dave: and their preferred
Dave: pronouns
Dave: on like a cardboard, like one of those little hotdog cards, little old ones.
Dave: and use them as a means of tracking attendance the 1st couple of days, because I don't really care about attendance, but I'm meant to pay some attention
Dave: and then use those as a way of getting preferred name and getting pronoun down properly and sort of having it there. So I can see it.
Dave: And it's just a change that I need to make, because I know I'm not gonna remember. And with my students even worse. Right? I wanna present my classroom as one where that's supportive of people's gender representation. But
Dave: that means either I would need to have a different brain.
Dave: or I come up with some of the process
Dave: that allows me to do that properly. And it's just about sorting my values out right. And when it hit. When you're hitting these points of change, you gotta ask yourself what you care more about.
Dave: Is it your ego, or is it how somebody else feels about it?
Jeff: I have a pro social question. So how do you deal with bullies and disinformation, whether it's crazy, uncle, spouting hateful lies, or someone cyberbullying your kid in an online space. How do you deal with that in a pro social way?
Dave: So we have some family
Dave: that we do this with several of my cousins and I.
Dave: We'll approach each of those conversations. We are polite. We include links to the relevant sources, and then we let it go.
Dave: So I try to make sure in any of those situations where I feel like I have some responsibility like these people are attached to me somehow
Dave: that
Dave: I at least input some of the
Dave: sort of source information. Now, I've gotten blocked a few times from doing that for people. And that's like.
Dave: okay, I guess it's no longer my responsibility. I can't do it anymore.
Dave: But that's what I do with the disinformation from family stuff.
Dave: And again.
Dave: I'm an old white dude, so I get away with it a lot more than other people would. So I kind of feel like it's more my responsibility because people are less likely to come at me.
Dave: in terms of my kids getting bullied.
Dave: I struggle more with that to stay calm in those situations.
Dave: We haven't seen very much of it with our kids.
Dave: the bits and pieces we've seen, we've sort of engaged pretty quickly.
Dave: The other problem is is that
Dave: frankly.
Dave: since all the bullying language is entered in the schools, kids have gotten really clever about. It
Dave: is really hard to read.
Dave: and it's easy to deny, like kids are not going on Instagram and going. You're stupid.
Dave: They're going on Instagram and going. Wow! That's great
Dave: dot dot dot.
Dave: right?
Dave: And then that's what's happening like, it's it's all microaggression, right? Like it's a really subtle microaggression. There's very little you can do about it other than talk to your kids about how they feel about the world.
Dave: cause you can't come at somebody for like a back end microaggression. What's that? How would you even do it?
Dave: That's the thing they've gone really crafty.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: yeah, you mentioned something, too. Like, there, there comes a point where not like, take the kids example. But the other like, you can
Jen: state your piece, whatever it might be, but it's probably not fruitful to just prolong the
Jen: disagreement on online, and
Jen: you know, I don't think I've ever really engaged in a lot of that. But I you know I can get myself drawn in. I was in a conversation not too long ago, and someone said, people like me, and for whatever reason people like me whoosh! My blood pressure just went through the roof, and I started typing. And I'm like, why am I doing this? You know, so I think.
Dave: You, delete Delete.
Jen: Yeah, exactly. So I think those are all skills. But I don't know. I really don't know what
Jen: I think you. You made a good point. You know you state your piece.
Jen: Try try to show information, but
Jen: You know I don't know as a society what how do we address. If you go to the cesspool that is Twitter. Now, X. Whatever
Jen: do you engage? Probably not. I've stepped back. Is there any value to trying to be the person out there fighting the good fight. On a more, Mac.
Jeff: Great idea, for next semester
Jeff: pissed off prompts like I always find I do my best writing when I'm pissed off
Jeff: and like I, you know, I want to draw out that kind of passionate personal writing so like, go ahead, and you don't have to post it. But go ahead and write that. And that's actually a really great writing
Jeff: task.
Jen: My, my.
Dave: Friends. I think we've hit Peak. Jeff Lebo. Optimism.
John: Turning. He's turning the Saas pull into a.
Jeff: Down.
John: Experience.
Jeff: Prompts this.
Jen: Stuff, from.
John: Wow.
John: I think I find myself my willingness to engage partly depends on how big the conversation has gotten. If I look at some post online, and it already has, you know, 400 comments on it. I'm not jumping into that poll at all. If it has 4, then.
John: you know there's some chance of of steering that conversation into a more civil
John: area. I may. I may try to do it that way.
John: But
John: you're shouting into the wind.
Jen: And then, though the flip side of all this, then we find our happy place, and we're in our little Echo Chamber.
John: Right.
Jen: Liking to ourselves, and we don't want anything uncommon.
Dave: Think it depends on what it's about.
Dave: So one of the issues that I tend to drop information into is housing.
Dave: So there's a lot of misinformation being done at a subtle level about housing in Canada in terms of
Dave: like in our city.
Dave: They've not quite been, but made it very difficult to build fourplexes.
Dave: Which are a great solution to housing problems in terms of being able to get families per capita into houses that they can live in
Dave: but the argument against it is that it affects property prices. And so there's a not my backyard sort of movement against it.
Dave: And so in those situations I'll drop.
Dave: Here's the Canadian stats can version of the something, something into those kinds of conversations, because
Dave: and I would do the same thing for solar pan
Dave: where we're actually involved in a conversation that's not like.
Dave: I mean, people do have emotional positions about this, but they probably should.
John: So you can heat your house by burning solar panels. I don't know.
Dave: Yes. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. You just gotta crunch them up first.st
Dave: Get them into the stove.
Jen: Alright, Jeff, we have 7 min left, and practice number 7, and you brought us into this discussion. We've got us all together.
Jen: Please take us out.
Jeff: I don't know. I'm just bored with the whole thing.
Jeff: Speaking of which point practice number 7 take time to be bored and.
John: Okay.
Jeff: For yourself and others.
Jen: Nice.
Jeff: How approach.
Dave: That was beautiful and.
Jeff: End of this long journey.
Jen: That was beautiful.
Dave: Yeah, I still struggle with it.
Dave: But I try to do it every day. I try to take at least a few minutes every day where I'm sort of still.
Dave: and not
Dave: serving myself something, and not soothing myself with something or
Dave: whatever that happens to be. I'm not like crazy successful at it.
Dave: One of my kids is better than the other at it.
Dave: Tried to work with them on it, one of them
Dave: and the other one
Dave: tries harder.
Dave: But it's a.
Dave: you know, when you've got systems that serve you exactly what you'd want all the time
Dave: is hard to stop.
Jen: Yeah.
John: Yeah, yeah.
Jeff: Speaking with. Let's talk about what Jen's doing at 2 Am.
Jen: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's my, that's my 2 am. Doom scroll. It's like, I don't think this is going to help me fall asleep faster to see, to have the entire world at my fingers, fingertips, and
Jen: the life. Do you really like? Go to sleep? It.
Jeff: 2 Am.
Jen: No, when I wake up and I can't fall asleep. The worst thing you can do is to fire up the smartphone at 2 am.
Jen: So yeah, then I feel hyper like my comment here in the notes is like hyper connected. Yes, I feel hyper connected to the world like I can't process at all. This is not good, so there's that there's that part of it the unhealth like, I truly think that's unhealthy, because then I'm not sleeping well, and it's not good for my mental health to worry about those problems. Yeah.
Jen: But then also to the flip side of it, I think the other part of it is, too. You're not during the daylight hours, when we're spending time on life like, are we using the
Jen: is there? Is there are there other ways we could be finding our passions and our creativity and allowing those things to develop.
Jen: But that's.
Dave: Those things aren't can't be digital right?
Jen: Yeah. Most of mine are.
Dave: But it's a
Dave: I certainly don't have the wherewithal to
Dave: do digital creativity like I have the wherewithal to do face like
Dave: embodied creativity.
Dave: Because I'm I'm not as distracted in my workshop
Dave: as I am in front of my computer. You know.
Dave: when I take out that all the rest of the business. Then I'm like.
Dave: sometimes I'll just sit quietly, partially. That's because I don't want to sharpen another chisel.
Dave: But
Dave: yeah, I think that
Dave: there are a lot of positive and negative emotions and thoughts and stuff that get processed whenever your brain is quiet
Dave: and I struggle to find quiet for my brain now.
Dave: right, I'm not saying that I was choosing it before.
Dave: I just had to have it, cause, you know.
Dave: Think of it like a bus ride.
Dave: or like
Dave: those kinds of things which now
Dave: like there's nobody on a bus who is just sitting there quietly looking at the window.
Jen: But yeah, just think about even how excited we were. Ipad came out like, Oh, we can have the whole world at our hip as we're running like we don't even just like run, just go out and take a walk.
John: You know all.
Jen: Just going.
John: Yeah, waiting rooms or plans, or you know all of those things.
Dave: I'm not sorry about planes.
Dave: Those 13 h trips to to Korea before I have.
John: Home.
Dave: Man. They were long.
John: You had to watch the movie they were showing.
John: Yeah or not.
Jen: John, did you? This reminds, did you put our Podcast, on a CD and listen to it in your car?
John: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I did that for the 1st year of
John: first, st probably 2 years of a tech talk.
Jen: Okay.
John: I use rewritable Cds for it. But yeah, burned it to a CD. Because it was the only way I had in 2,006 of listening to it
John: in my car, right? Because there was no Internet access outside of a wire.
Jen: How long does it take you to download it to your computer, burn the CD, that process.
John: Oh, yeah.
Jen: It's like a while.
John: I do it like once a week I would do a pile of them, and then listen to them in the car, and then.
Jeff: So much, easier, just to join the podcast.
John: Yeah, sure it was.
Jeff: I have a concluding question.
Jeff: I quote from the book.
Jeff: if we become too sure of ourselves, and our definitions, too, caught up in our own way of seeing things. We can't make space for new things or new perspectives.
Jeff: Dave, you've been talking about this book with us for months, and you're all over the Internet.
Jeff: Given presentations, writing articles.
Jeff: What is?
Jeff: Have you had any new things or new perspectives related to all of this.
Dave: So interesting? Question.
Dave: IE.
Dave: Have been, and I've said bits and pieces of this. I've been fascinated just about how differently people take the book and different things. That's been one of the real outcomes.
Dave: I think.
Dave: I am
Dave: surprised at how many people want to talk about it.
Dave: not the book, but the idea behind it, which is again, doesn't just belong to me. I've taken it from other people and all the rest of that stuff that
Dave: I think
Dave: people are
Dave: needing some kind of conversation. That may be this one or not, that people need
Dave: a new way
Dave: to talk about the feelings they have, and then not the feelings they were talking about 10 years ago.
Dave: and I'm seeing it again and seeing in people who are 80. I'm seeing people who are 15.
Dave: And consistently, people are like.
Dave: yeah. And sometimes they agree or don't agree, or whatever it is. But that sort of need to sort of make sense of how
Dave: the way that we think about coming to know in the world, and by say, when I say learning, people think schools. But that's not what I mean.
Dave: and the way we do it now, and how they don't connect, and how that affects, how we try to do stuff
Dave: like
Dave: how we try to choose
Dave: watching my kid try to choose between the 10,000 hobbies she could start today
Dave: like, where do you even begin like, how do you do that kind of stuff?
Dave: And it's been fascinating the conversations I've had some really.
Dave: I've learned a lot. I've gotten people sending me books. I've gotten people.
Dave: and it's fed into the Uncertainty Conference and a whole bunch of stuff that's coming out of that where I was like. That's cool.
Dave: What is it.
Jen: Say again what she wanted to do.
Dave: What's that?
Jen: What's she looking to do, or what what was.
Dave: Start a hobby.
Jen: Start a hobby, any old hobby? Oh, I thought, oh, any! I thought you already had a specific one. Sorry.
Dave: How do you choose?
Jen: Hmm,
Dave: Right like.
Dave: If you only have the people around you to learn from, you've got to choose from the 7 that are available to you.
Dave: if there are 10,000
Dave: or a million
Dave: where do you even start.
Jeff: Isn't it the same way you choose ice cream.
Jeff: You ask for samples and decide.
Jen: Try it out!
Dave: But there are a limited number.
Dave: Usually.
Dave: I don't think I've ever been confronted by 10,000 ice creams.
Jeff: Challenge, accepted.
Dave: I had a delightful lemon cheesecake just a couple of nights ago.
Jen: It wasn't wonderful.
Jeff: No pressure but any thoughts on the next book.
Dave: I gotta finish the thesis first.st
Jeff: Had, a.
Dave: Possible it comes out of that.
Dave: So I should be moving to starting, writing that in the fall, and it'll be about.
Jeff: Tiger, t.
Dave: Uncertainty. Probably.
Dave: And.
Jeff: So not sure what the title of.
John: Titles.
Jen: I'm so insane.
Dave: It's uncertain. I'll be on certain T of some sort.
Dave: I mean, I've gotta work through. Basically, I'm gonna be doing
Dave: a series of interviews of people who attended the conference
Dave: and sort of their perspectives on what uncertain the relationships on certain education. So
Dave: gives me a nice tight group to pick from. Jennifer
Dave: gives me a
Dave: finally a contained group. Do some nice qualitative interviews.
Dave: And so the there's been talk with my supervisor about maybe turning that into a book, but we'll see how it goes.
Dave: Just depends. Got a lot of other things up in the air in the next 6 to 12 months, so
Dave: we'll see all that.
Jeff: Tuned. Well, don't stay tuned. We're going off air for the post show to get some updates. There.
Jen: That did that.
Jeff: Before we do so, any final thoughts from anyone.
Jen: Well, I think this is maybe I remember right long time ago said my book was going to be titled. It's hard to collaborate alone, and I think that's been a good that's been proven out here in our conversations.
Jen: That's my final thought.
John: This whole journey has been a delight for me. They've mentioned
John: a long time ago. Now I won't say exactly how long ago that he was starting to work on a book, and I couldn't wait to have
John: that book on my bookshelf
John: so that I could hand it to people. When I got into a conversation with them, and I've done that
John: 15 times
John: since this book came out, so
John: some of them gave it back.
Dave: Does it hurt them when you hit them with it?
John: You know
John: some of them. I think I've actually read it, which astonished me. Cause then I, you know, feel like I have to know something about it and talk to them about it, which is, which is super cool. But thank you for writing the book.
John: David.
John: Thank you, Jeff, for making us all come together and talk about it, and thank you, Jennifer, for doing show prep. So that none of us had to.
Jeff: Go.
Dave: So he.
John: Go on!
Jen: It's hard to collaborate alone.
John: Right.
Jen: Collaborate, alone.
Jeff: Yeah, I'll echo that. Thank you, Dave, for getting me to read a book for the 1st time in a little while and for everybody else playing along, and I will endeavor to find excuses to make us. Continue this conversation in one way or another.
Jen: Alright, sounds, awesome.
John: Thank you.
Jeff: Alright, and thank you so much to all of our viewers and listeners who.
Jen: I'll the Laura Westray.
Jeff: A.
Jen: Tuned in.
Jeff: Until next time.
Jen: Can you see.