[elderbob] ...and Vance Stephens is listening in from Abu Dahbi, but cant get in this chat window.
[Harold_Jarche] Life is in constant Beta
[Stephen_Downes] sadly, I'm stuck in Alpha...
[Harold_Jarche] yeah, that's probably closer to the truth for me too
[Stephen_Downes] Jay = nail -> hit on head
[Harold_Jarche] we barely know how the brain really works
[elderbob] Does managing "informal education" start to make it "formal"....
[Stephen_Downes] I think we have a pretty good grasp of the fundamentals
[Stephen_Downes] wow, Jay is a revolutionary now, "Instructional Design is dead."
[Harold_Jarche] Long live the learning gardener!
[elderbob] formalizing=normalizing which leads to performance testing which means its no longer informal. buthaina has joined the chat.
[elderbob] Hi Buth. best01 has joined the chat.
[buthaina] Hi eBob!
[Stephen_Downes] yeah - 'learning' has traditionally been representative as the acquisition of 'knowledge' where knowledge = some sort of cognitive capacity
[elderbob] Hi Best01
[buthaina] Hi everyone..
[Stephen_Downes] Hey, someone ask Jay about bthe contgradiction between 'corporate (=directed) learning' and 'informal learning'
[Stephen_Downes] (Ack, I *hate* the 100 char cut-off
[JeffLebow] us too. Hope to get rid of it eventually
[Stephen_Downes] ie, ask Jay who is in charge, and who pays?
[elderbob] "Formalized" chat
[Stephen_Downes] yeah, that's about it
[dave] a little clearer stephen?
[Stephen_Downes] Corporate learning is directed learning, how does that reconcile with informal learning, which is not directed?
[JeffLebow] welcome. Are you listening to the show?
[Stephen_Downes] ... and to put al;l that together: is corporate learning the rewiring of brains to align with the corporate agenda?
[dave] absolutely stephen
[dave] it's the whole point best01 has left the chat.
[Stephen_Downes] yup benoit has joined the chat.
[Stephen_Downes] Thing is, Jay - is there *any* justification for putting someone other than the learner in charge of learning...
[Stephen_Downes] Plan of action: set up learning so that it must be paid for, then use the requirement to pay as justification for having learnin
[dave] btw - jay can't see the chat room
[Stephen_Downes] g server the corporate, rather than the student, agenda
[Stephen_Downes] I know
[Stephen_Downes] I choose to ignore that fact ;)
[Stephen_Downes] Adaptation = conforming to ecosystem
[Stephen_Downes] Learfning = changing the ecosystem
[Stephen_Downes] I hate classrooms. Bandwidth too small.
[buthaina] Can we consider this session informal learning?
[Stephen_Downes] sure, absolutely
[elderbob] Adaptation does not involve learning>
[buthaina] O.K..I learn a lot this way..
[Harold_Jarche] I'm wearing my tux, so it's formal :/
[Stephen_Downes] adaptation and learning are separate concepts, they overlap but one does not completely contain the other
[Harold_Jarche] and some plants grow without a gardener
[dave] but they grow better inthe garden
[dave] of course, it forces us to decide what better is
[Stephen_Downes] some plants grow despite the gardener
[Harold_Jarche] some don't - in our garden anyway
[Stephen_Downes] never said it's static, need not presuppose that
[benoit] the problem is that most gardner that kill plant on a regukar basis usually take a new hobby, teacher on the other hand...
[Stephen_Downes] It's the difference between riding the wave (adaptation) and working the waved (learning)
[Stephen_Downes] adaptation = survival; learning = empowerment
[elderbob] ...or maybe doing both, by becoming a part of the wave.
[Harold_Jarche] how do you learn to adapt?
[Stephen_Downes] by trying to change things
[elderbob] and failing or succeeding.
[Harold_Jarche] more thru failure
[Stephen_Downes] and observing what changes, and what doesn't (and what bites back)
[Stephen_Downes] hm... there's a range between 'not predictable' and 'lockstep'
[elderbob] ...but its informal wandering.
[elderbob] Hi, Joy.
[Stephen_Downes] appropriate... but wrong. ;) Bee has joined the chat.
[Harold_Jarche] brain hasn't changed much - but we still don't understand it
[Stephen_Downes] whole concept of universals = a mistake (IMHO)
[elderbob] Hi Bee.
[Bee] hello..bit late
[Bee] just got back from school
[buthaina] welocme, Bee!
[Bee] Merci Buth
[Harold_Jarche] is that Bee from http://beewebhead.blogspot.com/?
[Stephen_Downes] George's brain works the same as Plato's brain (? won der if we could know whether this is true)
[Bee] Hi Harold...yes this is me :-)
[Stephen_Downes] Hi Bee
[Bee] Hi Stephen
[Harold_Jarche] nice to meet you virtually :-)
[Bee] same here
[JeffLebow] If you do want to chime in, we can always skype out to you on your cell
[Stephen_Downes] No it's ok, I want to hear george and Jay
[JeffLebow] roger that
[elderbob] Hi Sus.
[Bee] :hugs Sus
[elderbob] I'm just a node in a node world.
[buthaina] Waves to Sus!
[Sus_Nyrop] :hugs Bee & Bob & Buth
[Bee] the 3 Bs
[buthaina] Omwaaaa, (a kuwaiti style kiss) on Sus's 2 cheeks!
[Sus_Nyrop] strange things hapening; my PC thinks it will not play the stream with Windows media player tonight (which is the one I am usual
[Stephen_Downes] There may be 'objective knowledge' (eg 2+2=4) but the problem is we can never know whether this bit of objective knowledge descr
[Sus_Nyrop] Need a trobubleshppt why
[Stephen_Downes] ibes the current situation.
[JeffLebow] Can you try another media player, sus? Try the Winamp icon - it might open with a program other than Winamp, but will hopefully
[Sus_Nyrop] I'm afraid I've come into a pretty subjective chat room situation here
[Stephen_Downes] Heisenberg... I'm uncertain about him
[Bee] true belief...hmm
[Sus_Nyrop] Yes, I will Jeff; my firewall was updating itself yesterday, that's probably why
[Stephen_Downes] JTB = long discredited in philosophy... cf. 'gettier problems'
[Sus_Nyrop] heisenberg was working with Niels Bohr
[Sus_Nyrop] if that's the right Heisenberg
[dave] very funny stephen...
[Stephen_Downes] nice one-sentence summary of Berkeley
[dave] ignore him suz... he's joking
[dave] i love the good bishop
[Stephen_Downes] I think the response is: the 'expert knowledge' cannot exist apart from the community of practice (properly so called)
[Stephen_Downes] Hi jay
[jay] Hello, Stephen
[Harold_Jarche] time to type the talk jay
[buthaina] Nice meeting you, Jay!
[jay] Yes. Java was acting funny this morning.
[Stephen_Downes] Java always acts funny Sus_Nyrop has joined the chat.
[Stephen_Downes] sp;elled 'Maish', pronounced 'Queegle'
[Harold_Jarche] Re: George - sounds like what elgg.net is attempting to do
[gsiemens] yes - Harold - I agree
[Stephen_Downes] yeah, to a degree
[gsiemens] it lacks (at this stage) the more formal presentation of information
[Bee] I think this applies to people who have already had the basics
[gsiemens] it is the beginning of an ecology
[Stephen_Downes] Nice multitasking, george, you using macros?
[Harold_Jarche] always limited when you try to constrain anything
[gsiemens] i'm trying to be technically cool :)
[Harold_Jarche] u r way cool
[Stephen_Downes] well you earned your net-gen props with that display
[Sus_Nyrop] I think elgg blogs could help understanding cross community knowledge building by the way they have structured the FOAF format
[Harold_Jarche] i agree sus
[Stephen_Downes] yeas, absolutely, we haven't touched the potential of FOAF yet
[Harold_Jarche] el still being hijacked IMO
[Sus_Nyrop] abusing technology! interesting approach! Power to the technology!
[Stephen_Downes] augment ourselves = ok, it's empowerment
[Stephen_Downes] augment existing practice = not ok, builds bigger barriers
[Stephen_Downes] totally hijacked
[Bee] what do you mean Stephen?
[elderbob] Misusing technology is the drive of creativity.
[Stephen_Downes] what do I mean?
[Harold_Jarche] thanks George :-)
[Bee] augment existing practice builds bigger barriers?
[Stephen_Downes] elearning as a means of selling product and increasing compliance, rather than enhancing personal development and capacity
[buthaina] evolution, missing link, digital devide, literacy, illiteracy, are tags I'm precisely or certainly occupied with at the moment
[Bee] got it
[elderbob] Great hour....tell em to come back again, and you too Stephen.
[Stephen_Downes] existing barriers are entrenched with technology
[elderbob] and you too Harold.
[Sus_Nyrop] easy webcasts rule!
[buthaina] Thanks all gsiemens has left the chat.
[elderbob] and the rest of you too.
[Stephen_Downes] working on it
[Stephen_Downes] ----------- ------------------ (open line)
[Harold_Jarche] next discussion on how to incorporate FOAF?
[Stephen_Downes] FOAF = part of a larger picture
[Bee] technology formats your mind in a certain way
[elderbob] put up an internet chat room and invite webheads.
[Stephen_Downes] we haven't even put in place properly content syndication in learning
[JeffLebow] Would you like to skype in?
[Stephen_Downes] much less content creation
[Stephen_Downes] the ants go marching one by one, harraugh harraugh
[Bee] I hate ants
[buthaina] for me as a kuwaiti citizen, i look at technology as the new movement that might help us reach stability here in the region
[Stephen_Downes] still here Barbara_Ganley has joined the chat.
[Stephen_Downes] what's the next barrier we can drop?
[JeffLebow] Hello Barbara. Are you listening in to the show?
[dave] hi barbara...
[Bee] Welcome Barbara
[Barbara_Ganley] hi all--sorry for being so late (in class)
[Harold_Jarche] OS = WhiteWeb (vs BlackWeb)
[buthaina] Hi Barbara..Was at your blog earlier in the day, and like the podcats by your Ss..
[Stephen_Downes] well there's this thing where popularizers get credited with the theories they write about...
[buthaina] very impressive
[Stephen_Downes] ... and are suddenly considered the 'experts'
[dave] always been the way of things... i suppose
[Stephen_Downes] no, it's a phenomenon of mass media
[dave] by that argument, newton invented physics
[dave] or did he have mass media..
[Stephen_Downes] & advertiser / publisher supported media. Gladwell = safe, not subsversive, like the theory fully extended it
[dave] i suppose he did, with his relationship to the crown
[Stephen_Downes] No, our understanding of hustory (cf 'big man theory') invented 'Newton' (the inventor of it all, rather than...
[Stephen_Downes] the one standing on shoulders of giants...
[dave] now you're quoting
[dave] newton was not created after the fact, he was huge at the time
[dave] and people were lobying for him
[dave] hee hee
[dave] this is fun
[Stephen_Downes] yeah, Newton vs Leibniz
[Stephen_Downes] in the books and pamphlets of the time
[Stephen_Downes] = mass media
[dave] and the podium in the roman ampheteatre
[dave] it's as much about people in power (book sellers or kings) being associated with smart people or useful ideas
[Stephen_Downes] and in managing who gets that power ...
[dave] like in our government
[buthaina] YES, we are..
[JeffLebow] We have space in the skype conference for one more if anyone would like to join in...
[buthaina] and learning from you..please go on..TIA
[Barbara_Ganley] I joined so late, I'm just trying to catch up (and on)
[dave] would be a great test barbara
[Sus_Nyrop] II saw a vodei with Elliott Masie , as pre-conefrence message where he was trying to explain...
[Sus_Nyrop] how diffrent this conference was mneant to be run. But could you explain to an outsider...
[Sus_Nyrop] what was so revolutionary about this ?
[dave] oh... and just so the webheads (and barbara) are aware
[dave] will richardson and his students from Seton Hall are going to visit the show on sunday
[Stephen_Downes] yeah, those ideas have been around forever
[dave] for a few minutes
[Stephen_Downes] It's about assigning credit again
[dave] good to see some things are consistent Stephen
[Barbara_Ganley] That's very cool--looking forward to it!
[Stephen_Downes] he should host Learning 2006 in Canada and see what happens...
[dave] he'd be colder
[Stephen_Downes] we have indoor heating...
[Harold_Jarche] no - cooler
[Stephen_Downes] no hurricanes
[dave] says you, we only have potatoes here Sus_Nyrop has left the chat. Sus_Nyrop has joined the chat.
[Stephen_Downes] ELearning 2006 - Montreal - a global culture - wonder if he could pull it off, would even consider pulling it off
[Harold_Jarche] yes sir, we have no bananas
[Bee] for bananas come to Brazil ...hehehe
[Harold_Jarche] ok :)
[dave] you have bananas?
[Stephen_Downes] Jay, again this is so not original to ELearning... we had NAWeb conferences like that for 10 years...
[Stephen_Downes] thye have Brazilians...
[Bee] Come mister tally man, tally me banana
[Stephen_Downes] You can't 'create' communities of practice
[Stephen_Downes] I'd go get a beer and return to Elliott
[Sus_Nyrop] beer, blogs & bananas?
[Sus_Nyrop] Munich Germany?
[Bee] 3bs again Sus...well done
[Stephen_Downes] OK, I would support Munich (not sure if I could get airfare tho)
[Stephen_Downes] Wonder how many 'traditional' Masie conference attendees would go to Munich... or even Montreal
[dave] cheaper to munich than vancouver
[Barbara_Ganley] Sounds like a blog bog (vs a Blogwalk)--or would that be in Dublin?
[dave] dublin's good
[dave] they have beer there
[Stephen_Downes] fair city
[Stephen_Downes] why is 'morfe than 1000 people' relevant?
[Sus_Nyrop] I love teh dog barking
[Steph] aww, nice dog
[Stephen_Downes] Great show guys
[Stephen_Downes] Jay, what time is tomorrow, and where?
[buthaina] Thanks :)
[buthaina] Appreciate it..
[Sus_Nyrop] thank you so much!!
[Sus_Nyrop] bye bye
[buthaina] bye bye..
[Bee] Thanks Jay
[dave] barbara, live soundcheck
[Harold_Jarche] it was a real pleasure guys!
[dave] and promo?
[buthaina] thanks Jeff , Dave..
[Sus_Nyrop] sorry I could not be here in time, need to listen ta a later moment!
[Barbara_Ganley] okay--tell me what to do.
[JeffLebow] skype 'worldbridges'
[buthaina] she is here
[Barbara_Ganley] working on it...
[elderbob] A lot to think about.
[Harold_Jarche] gotta go - see you next time
[Bee] ciao Harold
[Bee] give a hug to Karen Eini
[buthaina] you're funny Harold_Jarche has left the chat.
[elderbob] Deja Vu
[elderbob] Somebody "Call her"
[buthaina] eBob, I'm more confused now and have to go back to re-read all those articles again..
[dave] we are hearing that
[dave] hee hee
[dave] thanks for coming everyone!!!
[elderbob] Oh yes, Buth...I agree,,,,they will have new meaning after today.
[elderbob] Your perspective will be changed.
[buthaina] absolutely! eBob jay has left the chat.
[buthaina] have them infront of me, and reviewing my notes..they look silly now
[Bee] sounds wonderful
[Sus_Nyrop] very good voice Barbara
[buthaina] i mean my notes look silly
[dave] who looks silly?
[buthaina] Hear you very well, here in Kuwait , Barb
[buthaina] My notes, Dave
[buthaina] some of them not all
[buthaina] It looks a bit that I was thinking in my own world..
[Sus_Nyrop] quite a spooky echo from you gyus
[buthaina] if you see what i mean..however, i se now that my world is your world and vice versa