CCK Weekly Chat #6

admin - Sat, 2008-10-18 02:31
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Connectivism and Connective Knowledge Online Course
Week#6 Discussion
October 17, 2008

Chat Log Below


 11:27 anitsirk : hello
 11:27 anitsirk : does anyone know if there will be video today?
 11:28 ustreamer-3274 : Is the 'Dave' George mentioned in his tweet Dave Cormier?
 11:28 anitsirk : yep
 11:28 anitsirk : the host for this session
 11:28 ustreamer-3274 : ah ha
 11:30 ustreamer-71721 : Has the audio started yet?  I don't hear anything.
 11:30 anitsirk : no. i don't think so.
 11:30 cogdog : just the sound of chat
 11:30 anitsirk : :)
 11:30 anitsirk : i'll be screenrecording this session again.
 11:30 ustreamer-71721 : The sound of one hand chatting?  :)
 11:30 cogdog : one finger
 11:31 ustreamer-71721 : I don't think there is video.
 11:31 ustreamer-4269 : Ines: Hi All
 11:31 jpachon : hi all
 11:31 anitsirk : @cogdog: will you continue providing the audio recording of these ustream sessions or shall i put up the audio as well on archive.org? haven't done so for the last session as you did the nice audiobook earlier on
 11:32 ustreamer-71721 : I hoped to jump in and out but it doesn't look like this will start on time.
 11:32 cogdog : Yes I will, am behind. Was waiting for last week's to be posted
 11:32 jasongreen : Good morning
 11:32 anitsirk : it should start pretty soon according to george's tweet
 11:33 ustreamer-71721 : Where will the audio be posted?
 11:33 cogdog : 3 minute rule!
 11:33 andreasauwaerte : Good evening/morging! :)
 11:33 cogdog : edtechtalk usuually is where i find them
 11:33 anitsirk : @cogdog. great. then it's division of labor. ;)
 11:33 anitsirk : hi andreas.
 11:33 cogdog : is last week's been posyed?
 11:33 cogdog : has last week's archive been posted?
 11:34 vances : I presume no audio yet?
 11:34 andreasauwaerte : it up!
 11:34 ustreamer-71721 : @Vances:  No.
 11:34 anitsirk : george posted the audio for the elluminate part i think (it should be in the moodle forum. the audio for the first 30 min. ustream doesn't make too much sense as it is on and off
 11:34 vances : ah here it is
 11:35 anitsirk : @vances: the audio?
 11:35 jasongreen : You should have live streamed.
 11:35 vances : @anitirk I have audio, should we be on skype?
 11:35 cogdog : no audio here
 11:35 ustreamer-71721 : I can hear George but no one else.
 11:35 anitsirk : i don't hear anything yet
 11:36 vances : I'm hearing George talking somewehre
 11:36 andreasauwaerte : @ cogdog germany has audio! :)
 11:36 cogdog : stream looks acvite
 11:36 cogdog : luck germany
 11:36 cogdog : lucky
 11:36 ustreamer-71721 : Okay, audio working here.
 11:36 anitsirk : lucky you a few kilometers away, andreas ;)
 11:36 vances : George talking about his feminine side
 11:36 ustreamer-71721 : It will if you have a gun, Stephen.
 11:36 cogdog : not fair!
 11:36 cogdog : No audio here
 11:36 cogdog : crikie
 11:37 andreasauwaerte : @cogdog reloading the ustream window?
 11:37 vances : Stephen talking about his political days
 11:37 jasongreen : Stephen , a politician, my goodness.
 11:37 andreasauwaerte : seems to be election time in canada and usa?
 11:37 rmbell : open pop up window
 11:37 ustreamer-3274 : hello
 11:38 jasongreen : A star is born.
 11:38 vances : they mention viewers, I view nothing, can here
 11:38 ustreamer-71721 : So they can't see us chat and some of you can't hear them.  
 11:38 anitsirk : who's that female voice?
 11:38 cogdog : pop up worked
 11:38 dougsymington : not getting bkgrd noise on stream
 11:38 vances : Jenifer
 11:38 andreasauwaerte : think it would be jennifer.
 11:38 anitsirk : thanks @vances
 11:38 davidal : I can hear!!!!
 11:38 andreasauwaerte : Sound is exxelent
 11:38 cogdog : got audio via popup window
 11:38 ustreamer-71721 : Okay, someone has chat.
 11:39 cogdog : hello
 11:39 cogdog : Alpha Team Leader
 11:39 cogdog : Hi Jen                         
                                                                         
 10:57 rmbell : @cogdog the second - if the world is indeed becoming more complex. 
 10:57 ustreamer-64779 : We all have a different understanding of chaos
 10:57 ustreamer-1819 : @64779 that was my guess
 10:57 ustreamer-64779 : This makes having a converstaton difficult
 10:58 vances : chaos is a pattern that is so complex that it takes a supercomputer to discern it
 10:58 ustreamer-1819 : @rmbell still have your question in waiting
 10:59 ustreamer-64779 : The thing with chaos is that the outcome is different each time you run the system
 10:59 ustreamer-64779 : This means you cant be sure what the outcome will be
 10:59 vances : not really I don't think. Depends on how far out you run the algorithm
 10:59 ustreamer-64779 : not algorithms natural systems
 11:00 vances : but don't natural systems run in algorithms, or are not algorithms discriptions of natural systems?
 11:00 ustreamer-64779 : and even with algorithms as lorrentz realised with rounding errors still diffrent outcomes
 11:01 cogdog : algorithms only approximate natural systems
 11:01 ustreamer-64779 : algorithems discrete systems natural sytems can be continues
 11:01 DeanLoberg : hello.
 11:01 vances : stephen is describing how one algorithm of pendulum movement impacts another
 11:01 ustreamer-16776 : aaaaah
 11:01 ustreamer-64779 : no actural penulum
 11:02 vances : this is calculus, finer and finer approximation of area under a curve
 11:03 ustreamer-64779 : yes but computers have to translate this into discrete numbers
 11:03 vances : then it's algorithmic
 11:04 ustreamer-64779 : uh
 11:04 rmbell : If you track the pendulum for years would repetition appear.  
 11:04 vances : that's what mandlebrot diagrams suggest
 11:04 ustreamer-64779 : with three forced pendulums maybe not l think  
 11:05 ustreamer-1819 ://tallblog.conted.ox.ac.uk/?p=64
 11:05 ustreamer-1819 : dave white and WOW
 11:06 mmvcentro : Maru:common mutually depending nodes all interacting at the same time, great conversation
 11:06 ustreamer-64779 : not sure we can apply this to social situations
 11:06 ustreamer-64779 : people are goal seacing
 11:07 cogdog : are people fractal? ;-)
 11:07 ustreamer-64779 : I don't think this is the same as attractors in chaos
 11:07 ustreamer-1819 : i am
 11:07 jasongreen : How can we apply it in a way you don't need a supercomputer to grok?
 11:08 ustreamer-64779 : no chaos is maths social systems are different
 11:08 anitsirk : that visualization is great.
 11:09 ustreamer-64779 : you need some empirical studies to show that social situations are chaotic
 11:09 rmbell : We are born with a supercomputer ?
 11:09 ustreamer-64779 : Is ther any?
 11:09 vances : chaos theory suggests that there IS an algorithm but it's so complex and impacted by so many variables that it's very difficult to discern
 12:09 jasongreen : http://www.visual-literacy.org/periodic_table/periodic_table.html
 12:09 ustreamer-1819 : @64779 wanna come into the skype call and further illustrate your point?
 12:10 dougsymington : anyone who needs proof that social systems are chaotic need look no further than the electoral system in US and Canada
 12:10 andreasauwaerte : doug ??
 12:10 ustreamer-64779 : sorry not got skype talk on moodle start a thread or read mine Tim Gillibrand
 12:11 ustreamer-1819 : gotcha
 12:11 rmbell : choas is visualized by "intuition"
 12:11 ustreamer-64779 : @1819 who are you?
 12:11 dougsymington : @andreas--sorry bad attempt at a joke
 12:11 carlosgc : This periodic table of visualization is great
 12:12 anitsirk : 1819 is dave cormier
 12:12 andreasauwaerte : @doug - k
 12:12 ustreamer-64779 : hi dave
 12:12 ustreamer-1819 : i am dave
 12:12 robwall : "Enter the world" - no, but that may become the social system than we might be used to. (IMHO)
 12:12 rmbell : @stephen the world is more complex so the child takes in diffferent view
 12:13 ustreamer-1819 : @robwall escape the drop bears?
 12:13 robwall : Right - neurological systems haven't changed.
 12:13 andreasauwaerte : @rmbell maybe it doesnt think in complexity - child stays on use!?
 12:13 ustreamer-64779 : Wolfram says there are 4 types of system
 12:14 robwall : Question might be - how does our neurological system deal with a more complex social system.
 12:14 ustreamer-64779 : and once a threshold has been reached everysystem is just as complex
 12:14 ustreamer-64779 : these are systems that are equivalent to universal turing machines
 12:14 robwall : Ha - good answer!
 12:14 cogdog : entroy yes
 12:15 ustreamer-64779 : so people and social systems are equaly complex
 12:15 cogdog : but entropy of systems on a longer scale of variation
 12:15 ustreamer-64779 : brains and social systems then
 12:16 vances : here's a question, what kinds of questions are you hoping for?
 12:16 ustreamer-64779 : ye quantifiying measuring all good
 12:16 andreasauwaerte : asking myself loud? about complexity do we just discover the "nature" of the cpmplexity which has been undercover before?
 12:16 ustreamer-64779 : these questions are facinating
 12:16 rmbell : Does education "freeze the view" of a complex world during their life experience and "formal education"
 12:16 anitsirk : "more" and "less" are subjective. numbers seem to be more objective
 12:17 jasongreen : How do you guide the system if you can't measure it?
 12:17 vances : wait how can a system be not cause and effect?
 12:17 ustreamer-64779 : you can study complexity many people do you can be rigourus and not just vauge
 12:17 cogdog : Complexity factor today is 42.7436546546
 12:17 dougsymington : what's the connection between one's ability to assay "complexity" and "creativity" in a given learner
 12:17 dougsymington : that is are "creative" individuals better able to "decode" complexity?
 12:17 anitsirk : @cogdog: on what scale?
 12:18 cogdog : Larger question is how to help people, learners, society deal with a complex system when conditioned to simplifed frameworks we get in school?
 12:18 ustreamer-64779 : constructivist theories explain this
 12:18 ustreamer-64779 : you give people the scafolding and they build the concepts
 12:18 andreasauwaerte : @cogdog IMHPO by explaining your benefit you got in the use of socialmedia
 12:18 ustreamer-64779 : give them a pen and paper and some exasmples get them to draw it
 12:19 ustreamer-1819 : @cogdog... that's the follow up... one quesiton at a time
 12:19 rmbell : @jasongreen -incremently adapting as you proceed rather than make a an overall 16 year curriculum.
 12:19 ustreamer-64779 : yes thats constructivist
 12:20 ustreamer-64779 : I agree
 12:20 ustreamer-64779 : negotiation
 12:21 robwall : @1819 - Hi Dave. Sorry I ignored your message - my attention was diverted.
 12:21 ustreamer-20060 : what is important to teach is those patterns that occur most frequently
 12:21 vances : what is that important thing that is important to LEARN
 12:22 jasongreen : If you can't achieve planned outcomes in an unplanned way, good luck selling the process to the bean counters.
 12:22 rmbell : @vances - what needs to be memorized?
 12:22 vances : and how can the environment be contstructed so that this concept or heuristic for getting there is learned?
 12:22 andreasauwaerte : @vance those things you were enabled to get in the understanding of new learning?
 12:22 andreasauwaerte : @vance - thats a good follow up!
 12:22 vances : yes, that is what teaching is, and Stephen would say modeling the heuristic for the students (I think)
 12:23 jpachon : ¿what kind of tools is important to do?
 12:23 jpachon : applied the two theories?
 12:25 ustreamer-64779 : these constructs are usefull as scafolding
 12:25 ustreamer-64779 : the learners will build there own concepts and drop the scafolding latter
 12:25 rmbell : cassting an abstraction into a solid
 12:25 robwall : Libel by label?
 12:26 cogdog : chaotic environments?
 12:26 ustreamer-64779 : why not construct environments learnes can explore them and learn
 12:27 andreasauwaerte : @steve can you precize your understanding of realistic?
 12:27 ustreamer-64779 : Praxis theor and practice in action
 12:27 LisaMLane : I guess I should have read that
 12:28 LisaMLane : us birds need our nesting
 12:28 LisaMLane : oh, but we could indent, huh?
 12:29 ssorden : I tried to find it the other day in Amazon. Couldn't.
 12:29 robwall : Who's the author?
 12:29 mmvcentro : Maru: author?
 12:29 ustreamer-1819 : author author
 12:30 ssorden : thx
 12:30 anitsirk : thanx
 12:30 robwall : thx
 12:30 andreasauwaerte : Thanx!
 12:30 mmvcentro : thanks
 12:30 jasongreen : http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Chaos-Introducing-Ziauddin-Sardar/dp/1...
 12:30 jasongreen : Is this it?
 12:30 robwall : @jasongreen thx
 12:31 ustreamer-64779 : thanks everyone
 12:31 anitsirk : thanx for the session
 12:31 mmvcentro : thaks all
 12:31 vances : jeff AND dave
 12:31 anitsirk : thanx for the quick search,  jason and the link
 12:31 ustreamer-86687 : Ziauddin Sardar Introducing Chaos
 12:31 vances : Ziauddin Sardar
 12:31 ustreamer-4269 : thanks
 12:31 mmvcentro : thanks Jason it's the same author
 12:32 LisaMLane : some folks are at work and can't be heard talking at their desk
 12:32 andreasauwaerte : Mic is on!!!
 12:33 cogdog : adios
 12:33 andreasauwaerte : ;)
 12:33 anitsirk : the recording of the chat room shouldd be up soon.
 12:33 vances : this is post show
 12:33 cogdog : leave the mic open ;)
 12:33 carlosgc : que caos... bye
 12:33 andreasauwaerte : Very nice! Streaming charm!
 12:34 mmvcentro : I have it!
 12:34 anitsirk : i recorded the chat.
 12:34 vances : what did you mean by that, don't construct the environment?
 12:34 cogdog : make it interesting then
 12:34 mmvcentro : give your email
 12:34 vances : Thinking Second Life for example